Motorcycle,ATV, & 4x4 Trails (Civil Rant)

[Shibby!]

Now, being that this might get some controversy, lets all keep it mellow and discuss matters. This post will not be well put together, but I just wanted to get it out there to hear people's views.

Either way, as the guys I ride motorcycles with know, I am thoroughly pissed off with quaders and 4x4's who insist on going down single track trails, or even MARKED motorcycle trails. This can clearly be seen in the southern part of Mclean where most of those trials marked motorcycle only, are noticeably double track. This also happens to some of my most prized trails in other areas which I will refrain from mentioning. As an example, has anybody been down Barwel Trail? Only a few years ago there was barely enough room for a motorcycle to go down it, now it's a open to almost anybody! What a disaster! BTW, this trail is marked on the map as MOTORCYCLE ONLY!

Now I know most motorcycle riders think the same way. I understand that quaders are looking for new trails and challenges, but do they really need to widen our narrow single track trails to the point that 4x4's try to follow suit?

I've seen trees cut, or pushed over, mud holes tore up, and terrain destroyed, all to be able to ride where we go. Sure it might seem unfair that we can ride Quad, 4x4, and motorcycle trails, but everybody is entitled to ride a motorcycle. They picked their form of transportation.

Here's where it'll get touchy. I feel this extends into the problem of more environmental damage. Not only are ATV's widening our single track and turning them into highways, but because of this, motorcycles are outsourcing new areas to keep riding tight, twisty trails.

I also feel motorcyclists are treated to the worst view of the general public because they feel we are doing the most damage. I think we all know truth here.

Since this is such a general statement, I'll go further to explain I understand it's a few ruining it for everybody. It's the same with most situations, but I want to know why those few persist on doing this and what they think they are accomplishing.

That's the end of my rant. I get a bit worked up, but try to keep it as civil as possible. I hope the rest do the same.

Thanks.

 

[catmando]

I personally have never seen a motorcycle only trail ever and I have coverd a lot of bush.Will be an interesting topic to follow!
catmando!

 

[mudboy]

just trying to think if I have ever seen a dirtbike spin it's back tire and cut a rut or 2. MMMM my opinion it is the fact that we have more people out there more machines and not enough trails. Another thing which is good and also bad is all these forms and GPS systems where everyone shares to the world where these trails are. Like I said it is good and bad. It comes down to proper education and everyone out there to try and do there part to help. I also have never scene a chain saw strapped on a dirt bike that is used to remove the fallen tree off the trail or to build a bridge over a bad mud hole.

just my 2 c
this is gonna be fun readings I think

 

[couleeman]

Interesting point of view. Haven't heard a biker complain about quads before to be honest (have heard and experienced several negitive things with bikes though). I can understand your point though. If the trail is clearly marked "Motorcyles Only" then quads should not be on them.

However, because a map says they are motocycle only doesn't always mean they are. I have seen several maps that are out of date, or wrong information on them, ect. Easy to make a mistake as a large portion of maps are put together by individuals and clubs. Just because it is only wide enough for a motorcycle at the time, doesn't mean that it is a motorcycle trail.

Just my 2

 

[Shibby!]

Interesting point of view. Haven't heard a biker complain about quads before to be honest (have heard and experienced several negitive things with bikes though). I can understand your point though. If the trail is clearly marked "Motorcyles Only" then quads should not be on them.

However, because a map says they are motocycle only doesn't always mean they are. I have seen several maps that are out of date, or wrong information on them, ect. Easy to make a mistake as a large portion of maps are put together by individuals and clubs. Just because it is only wide enough for a motorcycle at the time, doesn't mean that it is a motorcycle trail.

Just my 2

This is true, but next time you swing out to Mclean, check out the maps handed out by the Fish and Wildlife. All (or most) of the trails near Fisher Creek are motorcycle only. I assume these are up-to-date, or what the rangers inforce. When you are on the trails, it shows a motorcycle on the signs to show this as well. I have seen quaders on these trails and I have told a few they aren't supposed to be on them as well. You can imagine the responses I get. I find the majority of this damage happens well before us motorcycles are even allowed on the trials early season! When a time where ATV's are left alone to do as they please. Every spring I find new trails ruined. As I call it, Rocky Ridge or otherwise known as Quark Ridge is the next trail that's been changed (ie, trees cut, more paths made, wider trails) allow quaders to pass. This wasn't the case 1 year ago!

I have seen people mount chain saws on thier bikes to clear trees. I have personally gone out and cleared sections of my favourite trails of fallen trees by hiking in because I don't have a chainsaw mount. The fact of the matter is it's not as easy to pack a chainsaw of any size on a motorcyle as it is on a quad. To top it off, we often go over trees, and around larger ones with less disturbance then ATV's and 4x4's. Lots of people bring hand saws in backpacks as well.

Dirt bikes do spin often, but with their light weight and appropriate riding technique don't do near the damage a trail can receive from multiple quads passing down it. To top it off, most (not saying all), but most riders do not "wallow" in the mud. How often do you see a motorcyclist wearing rain gear? Reason for that? Anybody who has rode a motorcycle knows mud is not fun to ride. Most riders avoid water, mud, and muskeq. When I see 4x4s and ATV's playing like pigs in water sensitive areas I shake my head. Problem being is that we are out numbered and often given the dirty look instead of those causing much more environmental damage.

This stems off into other discussions, but I'd like to see the following changes in our areas:

1) Much like sledding, trail passes which help pay for bridges, trial repair, trail clearing, fences, etc. I know association memberships are working for these goals, but they aren't reaching the masses.

2) Much like mountain biking, it should be encouraged to stay off the trials when they are wet, or stay off water sensitive trails till they are dried up. In the downhill mountain bike scene, you are frowned upon because of the damage a bike makes to the trail. You put a 800 lb ATV or 250 lb bike across mudded trails and they turn ugly real quick.

3) People respecting trails and stop the widening, clearing, and unneccessary damage. Bikes should not be hill climbing and ruining whole hill sides. If they must stick to one track. Quads should not wallow in mud or water crossings, 4x4's should not rut trails with 36" tires that cause holes deep enough you can use small motorboats to cross.

4) Lastly, closing Mclean, Wiaprous, Indian Graves, and other similar areas on long weekends. Nobody allowed in. This will help benefit all recreationalists in the long run. It keeps our precious areas off the news and improves public view of what we do. When they see drunken retards flipping cars, riding around without helmets, burning trailers, and being stupid, they think it happens every weekend. They do not see those who go out there to clean the mess, those who pick up garbage left behind from the grad parties, or those who stop on the trial to pick up bottles and bar wrappers by those few who think they don't need to care for the land and our riding areas.

 

[sumx54]

What do you ride for a motorcycle shibby? I also have never seen a bike only trail. I have road a dirtbike for 21 years, my last being a crf 450r and I have always shared trails with quads and have never had a dispute. I'm a technical rider so I find it fun climbing the odd hill thats rutted and chewed by a quad, makes for good fast fun. But then again I like teaching my 7 yr old how to ride his dirtbike in the back forty and the quad tracks suck for him. I also ride a quad.

 

[couleeman]

Shibby, you make some good points, and most are not for just quads. Everyone needs to be responsible when riding. Quads may have the potential for the most damage, but doesn't mean they are the only problem.

If they started requiring a trail pass, I would be for it. Make it $20 a year then fine heavily for those that don't have it. If you can afford the machine, you can afford $20.

 

[teeroy]

I have both bike and quad, there are no designated trails for either up here. but I would respect a bike only trail, but I'm pretty sure the quads only folks (around here) would not. there seems to be a lot more of them nowadays than bikes out there, they do make a mess of the lowland areas but on the other hand the damage to the hills from climbing is solely on us 2 wheel riders. I would love to find some single track trails, I borrowed a Rayco mulcher this winter and started to make some trails on my own land. hope to have a 10 mile loop finished in a few years, the quad will be very useful in construction as it will also be a snowmobile trail for the wife and kids during the winter months.

 

[Shibby!]

I have both bike and quad, there are no designated trails for either up here. but I would respect a bike only trail, but I'm pretty sure the quads only folks (around here) would not. there seems to be a lot more of them nowadays than bikes out there, they do make a mess of the lowland areas but on the other hand the damage to the hills from climbing is solely on us 2 wheel riders. I would love to find some single track trails, I borrowed a Rayco mulcher this winter and started to make some trails on my own land. hope to have a 10 mile loop finished in a few years, the quad will be very useful in construction as it will also be a snowmobile trail for the wife and kids during the winter months.

If you can fit a quad or sled down a trail it's not single track. These trails were once only wide enough to fit the width of a set of bike bars down them (and often even less then that), now you can pass two quads side by side in places.

I ride a RM250. There may not be bike only trails up north, but there are in Mclean (closest riding area to Calgary) and these trails are not respected, nor are any other trails. I often see quaders seeing how far they can get down these single tracks before they turn around. It only takes so long before an idiot comes down with a chain saw and makes his oversized quad fit allowing everybody else to follow.

I agree everybody has to start respecting the trails more. Places around Calgary are getting run down fast. In a couple years they will all be closed and then everybody will bitch. Well, the time is now to conserve what we have instead of abusing it till we have nothing left. Once that happens, the market will be flooded with toys and the value of your machine will be next to nothing causing people to complain even more.

 

[crushd]

All machines leave an environmental footprint, yes even dirtbikes, it is up to the rider to be responsible for his/her actions. And just because you don't "get" how someone would like driving through a mudhole doesn't mean none of us should be able to. We need to be tolerant of each other and find ways to keep all our trails open instead of just the ones that suit ourselves.
I have never seen designated motorcycle only trails either.

 

[Mike Anderson]

This otta be a gooder!! I am a quader/ sledder/ hiker/ hunter/ off-roader for 15 yrs. We all beat the crap out of everything. We should all work together instead of giving the tree huggers fodder like this to use against us. Also never seen a bike only trail. According to the Ghost FLUZ map "Motorcycles are permitted on trails that are designated with signs for that use. Motorcycles REGISTERED for off-highway use can only be used on designated trails. These are narrow, single track trails that are only suitable for motorcycle use." So, you must be fully insured/ registered right!? And you must only ride on marked trails right!? The way I read it is you cant ride your bike on my trail or down the road or... So there!!!!!

 

[leonard]

easy solution to this is just ban motorcycles........... lol jk.
but honestly whats the big deal here. so the trail is 2 feet wider.
I do agree about 4x4 vehicles(TRUCKS) wreaking areas as I've completely witnessed first hand at what they do to any wet areas.

talking about destroying areas though. I think its a-lot to do with a rider not the machine.

A 4x4 ATV can crawl along anywhere and leave no or little dmg / foot print.
Or they can root all over and make a mud puddle into a mud pond.

same can be said for Bikes. Having owned a bike i know darn well how easy they can root up a area.

trying to tell ATV riders to keep off Bike trails is quite futile imho. you don't see ATV only areas where bikers are told to stay the heck off.

and telling ATV riders to keep off your Bike only trails is a good way to get into a bad situation if you happen along the wrong person (just putting that out there).
I know myself I might get irate if someone was to start hassling me for going down a trail. as i know darn well around here I've cleaned up a-lot of trails that were unmanageable for anyone regardless if they were bike or what ever only trails no one would have been using them if i had not got out there and put some sweat into clearing them off winter dead fall.

I think one thing we all need to remember here is that We dont Own this land its not ours to choose who gets to use it. Fine if the Law says you cant then you probably shouldn't push your luck and when those people who are in zones they are restricted from get caught they will yes get fined. but i do feel thats a job for the law to do and i honestly feel your probably over stepping yourself telling people what to do on the trail as it could not end up the way you want it to one day. my 2 cents

stay safe ride safe. clean up after your selfs and it will be alright.

 

[Shibby!]

easy solution to this is just ban motorcycles........... lol jk.
but honestly whats the big deal here. so the trail is 2 feet wider.
I do agree about 4x4 vehicles(TRUCKS) wreaking areas as I've completely witnessed first hand at what they do to any wet areas.

talking about destroying areas though. I think its a-lot to do with a rider not the machine.

A 4x4 ATV can crawl along anywhere and leave no or little dmg / foot print.
Or they can root all over and make a mud puddle into a mud pond.

same can be said for Bikes. Having owned a bike i know darn well how easy they can root up a area.

trying to tell ATV riders to keep off Bike trails is quite futile imho. you don't see ATV only areas where bikers are told to stay the heck off.

and telling ATV riders to keep off your Bike only trails is a good way to get into a bad situation if you happen along the wrong person (just putting that out there).
I know myself I might get irate if someone was to start hassling me for going down a trail. as i know darn well around here I've cleaned up a-lot of trails that were unmanageable for anyone regardless if they were bike or what ever only trails no one would have been using them if i had not got out there and put some sweat into clearing them off winter dead fall.

I think one thing we all need to remember here is that We dont Own this land its not ours to choose who gets to use it. Fine if the Law says you cant then you probably shouldn't push your luck and when those people who are in zones they are restricted from get caught they will yes get fined. but i do feel thats a job for the law to do and i honestly feel your probably over stepping yourself telling people what to do on the trail as it could not end up the way you want it to one day. my 2 cents

stay safe ride safe. clean up after your selfs and it will be alright.

I 100% completely don't understand your point of view. I could go on to explain it, but feel it would be a waste of time because it has already been explained above. I'll leave my reponse at that.

If I get a minute at work I will scan Mclean Creek Riding area's map to show the motorcycle only trails. This way you guys will all be informed of areas you should not be riding. The signs posted on trees should be enough, but obviously people don't follow those.

As for the point of riding a motorcycle down a quad trail. This does no do any further widening of the trail. When you take a quad down a motorcycle trail, you can't say the same. How would you like 4x4's going down all your favorite quading trails? Think about that angle for awhile.

 

[medler]

Well it is a touchy subject but if there are signs that say bikes only then i guess that is what it is ..My opinion is the big trucks and jeeps etc do most of the damage.Take a look at Chambers Creek west of Rocky mtn.House for example.The last time i was there it had very deep ruts actually craters.But at the same time it is crown land so everyone owns it.

 

[sumx54]

We all need to pull together and ride as one. The splitting of certain classes of all-terrain vehicles shouldn't be an issue. Maybe there should be a weight class such as no vehicles over say 1000# Allowed beond this point. That might keep the jeeps from sensitive areas and such. But I feel this thread is leaning more to the comfort of riding and missing the issue of "sensitive" riding areas. Believe me I'm not proud of it, but I have really chewed the sh%t out of sensitive areas in the past on my dirtbike as much as a quad. There has always been issues with all terrain units and horse back riders sharing trails too and I have seen it first hand in some of my favorite riding places, but dirtbikers and quaders? come on now.

 

[Garryese]

I ride a RM250. There may not be bike only trails...

I understand the frustration you are feeling, however let me ask you this. Is that RM250 legal to ride in the area your referring to? It's possible, but highly unlikely.

I have made it a life style to know the laws as they apply to ATVs. There is no law that I know of that permits your RM and not my ATV, unless the trail is registered. Registering a trail for MX bike use and not ATVs is not likely going to happen as there is just no reasonable way to doing it within the definitions used in the regulations. There is the possiblility to have a trail open for highway legal trail bikes and closed for OHVs that are not street legal, but I don't know of any such areas.

 

[mudboy]

I wish BEARS would learn to read the signs also and stay off the trails. I hate runnning into them. They do not listen either.

 

[steveo]

I wish BEARS would learn to read the signs also and stay off the trails. I hate runnning into them. They do not listen either.

lmao....... What about the deer?

 

[Shibby!]

I understand the frustration you are feeling, however let me ask you this. Is that RM250 legal to ride in the area your referring to? It's possible, but highly unlikely.

I have made it a life style to know the laws as they apply to ATVs. There is no law that I know of that permits your RM and not my ATV, unless the trail is registered. Registering a trail for MX bike use and not ATVs is not likely going to happen as there is just no reasonable way to doing it within the definitions used in the regulations. There is the possiblility to have a trail open for highway legal trail bikes and closed for OHVs that are not street legal, but I don't know of any such areas.

Yes it is. It's an offroad recreational area. I have lights, both front and rear, quiet spark arrestor, and plate, insurance, and registration.

As far as I have read, these trials are registered with the Fish and Wildlife. They are on the maps stating motorcycle only. There are TONNES of other trials that are not legal, but motorcyclists and ATV's have made them. This is where some unneeded environmental damage happens.

I also feel a lot of trails could lessen the impact on the environment if they were properly made. Refering back to the mountain bike community, there are books, and guidelines to follow to help make trails to lessen the impact. Such things as staying away from water sensitive areas, drainage valleys, etc. If these were followed the trails would stay dry and lesson the damage, as well as vehicles would stay away from water sensitive areas.

In addition, this weekend I rode my sled at Forester. There you have to remove any gas can/container on your sled before proceeding further. I asked some locals why this is and they stated this is because Radium gets their water supply from the river passing through. This made me think about both Wiaprous and Mclean. Both water supplies end up in the BOW which Cochrane, Calgary, and other downstream cities receive their water supplies.

I'm not fighting the fight to close areas, I'm just stating we need to smarten up before we lose it all. This is a lot closer then most think and it is very possible in the next few years this may become a reality leaving us with no where to ride and enjoy the outdoors.

 

[plumbum]

you may not be trying to get ohv's banned but you sure are adding to the fuel that the greenies use. if people that have a shared interest cant get along then ALL ohv's are a thing of the past. instead of posting to bitch about 4*4's ruining your trails you should become more active in the organization and management/stewardship of these trails. get involved with the quad squad or the AOHVA. and whatever you do dont make public posts on message boards to complain about the environmental impacts of ohv's. cut copy and paste. another nail in the coffin.