Lousy trades.

[CUSO]

I recently tried out a new plumber for my business, which is small but high end renovations.

He was recommended by someone I know, and I confirmed with him that he was ok with small jobs.

He did 3 jobs for me, first one he was very reasonable, and I was more than happy to pay him.

The next jobs, he was late, or never even showed up, called.. I had to call him numerous times to only get replies that he would be there later etc.

Sometimes this does not work because I have to be there to show him what needs to be done etc, which him not showing or calling wastes my time.

Anyways, these simple jobs, usually run around $700 to $1000, He charged me 1600 for one that I figured to be around 900.

Another one he charged me 1200 when I figured it to be around 650

He sent 2 people to do 1 person's work, billed for travel both ways, within city limits, I have documentation from the homeowner's security that one of his guys was present 4 hours one day, while he billed for 8.

I understand that he has to charge for travel, and to pick up material, but it doesn't take 4 hours to get a couple of fittings, and pipe.

I kept track of his worker's hours, and he overcharged me about 6 hours on one job. (16 HRS. instead of 11)

Long story short, I had phone conversations, and numerous emails explaining that I was unhappy with many particulars and he just made excuses about it.

I sent him a letter, breaking down one job and proposed a new amount, explaining hours,(materials I am fine with)

I saw 2 builders liens in my mailbox.

My customers are aware of this and I have their support.

I will pay these invoices, but I want to know what would happen next if I contest this?

I know he is out some time and money to get the lien in place, and he has 180 days to file a suit.. What costs are involved with this?

I feel like sticking to my guns and make it not worth it for him...

I mean, if he didn't want to do the job, he could have easily told me. But no, he sent me a "F*#k off and go away" invoice.

Anyone else have an experience like this?

 

[rzrgade]

Why was there a job # 3 , if he was brutal at job #2 ....?

 

[gates559]

Pay up and forget about it. You cant have a sub liening someones home. Your the contractor and this is exactly why they hired you, to avoid this sort of thing. Your supposed to have trusted sub trades available to hire when your a contractor.

You will eventually pay him anyways since you are the contractor and the ho will come back on you to get this cleared up. The ho will not be very happy having a lien on there home. Not going to be good for references. Just pay him and tell the ho your sorry.

 

[gates559]

Also you cant decide what someones time is worth. Over the years I have become proficient in almost every aspect of residential construction. This is a major asset, If I cant quickly find a trade willing to do the quality of work I expect at a price I feel is fair I am able to do it myself and keep the job moving along.

 

[Cyle]

I am currently dealing with a lawsuit involving a lien, the amount of legal fees is absolutely insane whether you are right or not, the only ones who win are the lawyers. One thing to keep in mind in the future is the minimum amount to lein is $300, so if they are overcharging on a small job you could pay and leave less then $300 and then they'd have to sue to try for rest. You also don't want the homeowner to tell you to get rid of the lien or them remove it themselves and charge you back, the trade can force you to pay more then the lien to remove it, especially if they think you have to get it removed.

I had the same BS with you with a crappy electrician over about $1,000, and in the end I said screw it and just paid. The other one is with some painters, and is over about $7,000 and you know what? After the lawyer fees i'm still going to end up worse off then if I just paid them in full from the start. However in consideration, their lawyer fees are racking up and they loose too.

My opinion is unless I really trust the trade, it's not going to be by the hour. It will be quoted.

 

[CUSO]

I got the 2nd and 3rd invoice at the same time. They were closely timed jobs.

Why was there a job # 3 , if he was brutal at job #2 ....?

 

[Cyle]

Also you cant decide what someones time is worth. Over the years I have become proficient in almost every aspect of residential construction. This is a major asset, If I cant quickly find a trade willing to do the quality of work I expect at a price I feel is fair I am able to do it myself and keep the job moving along.

You decide what they are worth when you negotiate the hourly rate, which is not the issue here, it is the amount of hours. Travel time to and from any job in the city is garbage. Travel time to pickup is material is fine. It is acceptable to have a minimum charge, but besides for that and travel time for material, it should be billed the exact time spent on the job.

 

[Cyle]

Speaking to the lien, assuming he filed it himself, it's a form at land titles of a cost of around $15, not really a big deal. If for some reason the customer is ok with a lien potentially staying on for 180 days you could just ignore it and force him to sue. However unless the job is done, it's unlikely. A lot of companies are pulling title before starting a job, I know I do if it's a fairly sizable job or I get a hint something might be off and I wouldn't touch a job with a lien. You can also put in a application to have the lien removed in exchange for paying the lien amount plus usually 10% for costs into court, however it is a $250 application fee, and usually done by a lawyer (cost of around $700-1000 easily). But not exactly cost efficient for how small the lien is.

 

[gates559]

You decide what they are worth when you negotiate the hourly rate, which is not the issue here, it is the amount of hours. Travel time to and from any job in the city is garbage. Travel time to pickup is material is fine. It is acceptable to have a minimum charge, but besides for that and travel time for material, it should be billed the exact time spent on the job.

Yeah your right.

 

[gates559]

You decide what they are worth when you negotiate the hourly rate, which is not the issue here, it is the amount of hours. Travel time to and from any job in the city is garbage. Travel time to pickup is material is fine. It is acceptable to have a minimum charge, but besides for that and travel time for material, it should be billed the exact time spent on the job.

Yeah your right.
I wouldn't hire anyone hourly because nine times out of ten they are charging hourly because they are not capable of quoting a job and making money.

 

[CUSO]

Yeah your right.
I wouldn't hire anyone hourly because nine times out of ten they are charging hourly because they are not capable of quoting a job and making money.

I work in a situation where you can't give an accurate quote on a job. You never know what you will see behind those walls.

I don't have x-ray vision, and my customers know this. They rely on my trades to be honest, and as efficient as possible.

If it's something like flooring, paint or drywall, that is not a problem, but Electrical, and plumbing, well... if I get a price, it is super inflated, so they can cover their azzes. My customers would rather pay hourly, have it done correctly/honestly without change orders.. etc.

I am only as good as my trades. when one just gouges me like that, I take it personally.

 

[abiceman]

Pay him off and report him to bbb and anywhere else you can.if they won't bill by the hour I don't want to talk to them.

 

[LennyR]

Lousy trades? I imagine your customer and everyone reading this , may be having some doubts about the general contractor in this scenario also !!

 

[LBZ]

Lousy trades? I imagine your customer and everyone reading this , may be having some doubts about the general contractor in this scenario also !!

I FN doubt that. Sounds reasonable to me to be concerned when a bill comes in way higher than the quote and they lie about how much time they put in.

 

[Cyle]

I FN doubt that. Sounds reasonable to me to be concerned when a bill comes in way higher than the quote and they lie about how much time they put in.

Agreed. Sounds more like someone with no knowledge of the business.

 

[LennyR]

I FN doubt that. Sounds reasonable to me to be concerned when a bill comes in way higher than the quote and they lie about how much time they put in.

Gates99 said it best . Or should I say he FS it best. Lol.

[ Pay up and forget about it. You cant have a sub liening someones home. Your the contractor and this is exactly why they hired you, to avoid this sort of thing. Your supposed to have trusted sub trades available to hire when your a contractor.

You will eventually pay him anyways since you are the contractor and the ho will come back on you to get this cleared up. The ho will not be very happy having a lien on there home. Not going to be good for references. Just pay him and tell the ho your sorry. ]

 

[CUSO]

Beat it TROLL...

Lousy trades? I imagine your customer and everyone reading this , may be having some doubts about the general contractor in this scenario also !!

 

[Ron H]

Business is easy, people management not so much. Typically I'll leave in a "budget price" pending confirmation of unforeseen pre-existing conditions. As they arise immediate communication is imparative, I've found "face time"/picture texting to be a useful tool. Some of my jobs have specific "punch dates" that would take catastophic events to alter...
With any of my subs one of the first ??'s , "do you see anything out of the ordinary that could impact the cost or punch"
As a GC/push ya gotta get everyone to play nice in the same sandbox, it's easier with immediate communication, current information, planning and resolutions.
In the end done is done, and ya just gotta pay up and continue "interview subs as it were" till you find the right guy...unfortunately ya never know definitively til around 3 months later when the "honeymoon is over"...
It's also a fine line having too much knowledge/experience in allowing for "unforseens" pricing accordingly and not getting the job. Ultimately you don't need the practice and are better to walk than trade dollars...

 

[LennyR]

What's your advice?

- Do better research on available various trades
- don't ask that friend for any more references
- never ever let a minor cost issue get to a point of a claim on clients title
- contractual clarity on issues like travel costs and parts pickup
- never allow client involvement in your negotiations with subs, that's why he hired you
- never ever ever advertise or let it be known that There may have been a breakdown in your job management
- consider seeking trades that you can create a relationship that includes some incentives for them if completed on time within monetary expectations, with a promise of consistent future work
- never forget , it takes years to create a reputation of being a competent reliable General, only takes a couple jobs, your fault or not , to cause speculation and doubt in consumers mind, and they always have lots of choices in front of them.

I'm sure there are lots more that others can offer, or that disagree with my suggestions , but long term , solid, wide spread reputations are earned from jobs that go smooth , and as soon as you say things like ,the client was on your side (but the lien was placed) and the client understood, etc, IMO, the damage has already been done. When he's asked by potential clients how it went , he's gonna say things like , well it went well except for the this and that , that's not a good reference , doesn't matter if it wasn't your fault.

 

[Mach1]

Well very good info, I am a plumber/gasfitter and also a contractor on many jobs, I also agree with that we can not see what is in the walls, but it is not hard to find a problem and take pics adapter and get in touch with the general and discuss with him what you have found and decide a plan and cost to fix. This is what I always do and have never found a contractor/general that will not except the extra cost to fix or make it right. I have been asked by many to quote the job and also do cost plus. I have only had one problem with a home owner and put a lien on his house and had him track me down and told me he will track me down and kill me, and I felt he probably would, so I walked away from 20g. So now I seldom do many jobs with out tons of research. I also hate to hear of these problems and pisses me off there are people like this still, but agree with that I would never ever let it get to having a lien put onto customers house. You say the customer agree with you, but what do you expect them to say, they really don't want to piss you off and have there house left undone right. From what I have read we are talking about few hundreds not thousands, so yes pay it and will loose more money from not getting anymore work from you or referral either, I wish I was around your area and would do all your work for you, lol the funny thing is if you are good and are honest you would always have work from only a couple contractors to keep very busy. Well look at this, I got call to a house as I was referred from another customer, I get there and home owner had a contractor do a complete bathroom Reno and cost home owner 7k plus to give them the bathroom they have always wanted, weeks later the bathroom ceiling downstairs is dripping water and they realized the shower was leaking, so for months they have tried to contact the contractor and guess what, no where to be found, so they stopped using shower and taped up the drain as they had sewer smell coming through, so now they also hoped that nothing else was done wrong, so here we got a contractor that was to cheap to hire a plumber as no way a plumber would have done this, so to fill you in on the big prob is that all showers have a 2inch outlet connection and the pipe you see is a 1 1/2 inch pipe and they realized it was to small in the shower hub so they filled with silicone and spray foam to hope it won't leak, the next problem is there is no P-trap at all. So now sewer gasses are getting into the house, so owner taped up the drain. So my point is that not just some trades are bad out there, but also bad contractors also, so after all your problems or my problems we should never make it the home owners problem. So do your homework and make the customers happy, all I know is once I fix this sort of little problem, I will get referred by so many as tomorrow night they will be happy and using there shower,,,,,, jobs jobs jobs after this fix,,,,,good luck and be honest and fair......
Darren