Is our sport dying? Why we need PR and why we need it now!

[Modman]

I don"t think think our sport is even sick . Its been growing in leaps and bounds since the late 60"s early 70"s.Just look at sled sales in the last 20 years.How many ereas can you list right now strictly for sledding?How many were there say 15 years ago?we"ve come a long way too late to turn back now.onward and upward.

The fact that you have to list areas that are strictly for sledding is exactly the point I'm making. 30 yrs ago you could ride anywhere, if you asked someone in 1975 to list sled specific areas they wouldn't be able to because you could ride anywhere, and people had the same attitude - our sport was growing and nothing was going to stop it. Here we are 20 yrs later...maybe you want to talk to the people in Revy and all along the southern rockies - 20 yrs ago you could ride most terrain, now a large portion of some of these areas are closed to caribou habitat, parks, etc, so I will have to disagree with your statement.

Sure, we can only look at a single factor like sled sales to say the sport is growing - of course there are more sled sales now than in the 1960s, how many people lived in Canada in 1965 as well? In 1969, it was a big deal if your record made it to platinum sales status, nowadays records go platinum multiple times over. Its not that music is any better, its just more people buying records. Just saying there are more sled sales doesn't mean the sport is growing, you need to look at how many sleds are bought per capita.

Also, I guess I never pointed out that I'm referencing western riding specifically. There will always be lakes to ride in Ontario so the east can bolster sled sales, but our western way of riding seems to be under attack from all angles. If we wait too long, we will be very very restricted in riding areas in 20 yrs IMO. I'd like to have more, not less, area for my kids to ride on.

 

[OOC ZigZag]

Sledding give us all a sense of freedom and there are groups that don’t think we deserve it Gov’t, Sierra club, general public due to poor media coverage. The Alberta Gov’t left Fortress Mtn dormant and a mess for year’s huge mismanagement enviro joke and they impose the areas and terms we ride under? A new park proposed from south bndry Don Getty park to north bndry Waterton next question I have is why? I have stated it in the past that we have the least impact on the environment out of all the Backcountry users so why are we the target? The media has put us in a bad view of the public and unjustly so. We are portrayed as beer drinking adrenaline junkies that drive lifted trucks and bad attitudes. We have all been painted with the same brush and until we as a community turn this around we will be ridiculed and criticized. We are up against huge opposition and they have lots a horse power. We have a huge fight on our hands and we got to step up or we will find more area closures. Where can we ride now in Alberta compared to where we used to be able to ride 20 yrs ago? Where will we be riding in 20 yrs? Will there be any area available to ride in 20 yrs? I think as a community we have not used our resources to their fullest. We have a bunch of independent associations that try to do what they can where they are this is not going to cut it in this fight. Its simple united we stand divided we fall. After all you gotta stand for something or you’re going to fall for anything. If you look at our incident numbers compared to the number of riders out there we are safe and if you look at the increase in safety gear sales I think it quickly demonstrates we are a responsible user group community and we are proactive. What we need desperately is some good publicity and we need it now. Modman thanks for putting this post up I hope it gets the attention it needs and deserves.:d

 

[powderpilot]

I think by simply looking at the sales stats you are diluding yourself about the facts.

First of all, you missed the years of highest economic growth, 2008, and 2009. Yeah, maybe people bought less sleds in 2010 due to tougher economic times, but those sleds from 1997 (also a strong year for the economy) are still on the hill. Without the numbers of how many people are actually participating in the sport, you can't make a valid argument that the sport is dying.

I agree that we need PR, but I think we also need to look at ourselves and what we are contributing as individuals. Being respectful of our surroundings, and educating others can go a long way.

 

[Roy Maxwell]

Sledding give us all a sense of freedom and there are groups that don’t think we deserve it Gov’t, Sierra club, general public due to poor media coverage. The Alberta Gov’t left Fortress Mtn dormant and a mess for year’s huge mismanagement enviro joke and they impose the areas and terms we ride under? A new park proposed from south bndry Don Getty park to north bndry Waterton next question I have is why? I have stated it in the past that we have the least impact on the environment out of all the Backcountry users so why are we the target? The media has put us in a bad view of the public and unjustly so. We are portrayed as beer drinking adrenaline junkies that drive lifted trucks and bad attitudes. We have all been painted with the same brush and until we as a community turn this around we will be ridiculed and criticized. We are up against huge opposition and they have lots a horse power. We have a huge fight on our hands and we got to step up or we will find more area closures. Where can we ride now in Alberta compared to where we used to be able to ride 20 yrs ago? Where will we be riding in 20 yrs? Will there be any area available to ride in 20 yrs? I think as a community we have not used our resources to their fullest. We have a bunch of independent associations that try to do what they can where they are this is not going to cut it in this fight. Its simple united we stand divided we fall. After all you gotta stand for something or you’re going to fall for anything. If you look at our incident numbers compared to the number of riders out there we are safe and if you look at the increase in safety gear sales I think it quickly demonstrates we are a responsible user group community and we are proactive. What we need desperately is some good publicity and we need it now. Modman thanks for putting this post up I hope it gets the attention it needs and deserves.:d

This is exactly the point that Modman is trying to get across to everyone. You can talk about the economy and sales and say sled sales dropped due to the economy and the industry is good and the sales will come back but the point is if in the future we have nowhere to sled other than our own property then there will be little or no sled sales irrespective of the economy. What brought it all home for me was speaking with the European Avalanche Expert at Mountain Mania 4 in Valemount. According to him in Europe there are no motors of any kind allowed anywhere in the alpine, no snowmobiles, no quads, no helicopters as over time the greenies have had motorized activity in the mountains in Europe shut down. History repeats itself and you are already seeing this happening in Canada. No matter what anyone says, in Western Canada at least, we cannot sled in near as many areas, be it flatland or alpine, as we could 20 years ago. Canada may be the "True North Strong and Free" but over the last 50 years our demographics have changed dramatically. The vast majority of our population now lives in large urban centres and by virtue of their numbers they influence the political agenda. That is how a democracy works. Many of these people have never seen a snowmobile except in a picture and I can guarantee you snowmobilers are not in the majority in Canada. It is the majority influenced by special interest groups that set the political agenda in Canada. At this point in history, in my opinion, the greenies are doing a better job than we are. We all know we are not hurting the environment, we all know that 99% of sledders are safe and responsible people, we all know that snowmobilers are not dying off at a rate greater than any other outdoor sport, we all know that there are toy runs and snowmobile rallys across this country that donate large sums of money to charities, we all know that snowmobilers stimulate the economy, not just the manufacturing sector but the tourism sector as well. It is not good enough that we know this, they must know this. That positive message to the masses that do not snowmobile but set the political agenda can be done through a great public relations program and every snowmobiler in this country being an ambassador for the sport by behaving in a manner that fosters respect. I agree that manufacturer's and the tourist sector must be involved and they already are but if getting the message out requires individual sledders to purchase a membership in or contribute to an organization that speaks for sledders across North Amercia much like the NRA does for arms in the United States then I say where do we sign up.

 

[OOC ZigZag]

This is exactly the point that Modman is trying to get across to everyone. You can talk about the economy and sales and say sled sales dropped due to the economy and the industry is good and the sales will come back but the point is if in the future we have nowhere to sled other than our own property then there will be little or no sled sales irrespective of the economy. What brought it all home for me was speaking with the European Avalanche Expert at Mountain Mania 4 in Valemount. According to him in Europe there are no motors of any kind allowed anywhere in the alpine, no snowmobiles, no quads, no helicopters as over time the greenies have had motorized activity in the mountains in Europe shut down. History repeats itself and you are already seeing this happening in Canada. No matter what anyone says, in Western Canada at least, we cannot sled in near as many areas, be it flatland or alpine, as we could 20 years ago. Canada may be the "True North Strong and Free" but over the last 50 years our demographics have changed dramatically. The vast majority of our population now lives in large urban centres and by virtue of their numbers they influence the political agenda. That is how a democracy works. Many of these people have never seen a snowmobile except in a picture and I can guarantee you snowmobilers are not in the majority in Canada. It is the majority influenced by special interest groups that set the political agenda in Canada. At this point in history, in my opinion, the greenies are doing a better job than we are. We all know we are not hurting the environment, we all know that 99% of sledders are safe and responsible people, we all know that snowmobilers are not dying off at a rate greater than any other outdoor sport, we all know that there are toy runs and snowmobile rallys across this country that donate large sums of money to charities, we all know that snowmobilers stimulate the economy, not just the manufacturing sector but the tourism sector as well. It is not good enough that we know this, they must know this. That positive message to the masses that do not snowmobile but set the political agenda can be done through a great public relations program and every snowmobiler in this country being an ambassador for the sport by behaving in a manner that fosters respect. I agree that manufacturer's and the tourist sector must be involved and they already are but if getting the message out requires individual sledders to purchase a membership in or contribute to an organization that speaks for sledders across North Amercia much like the NRA does for arms in the United States then I say where do we sign up.

If you read back you will see I made the comparision to the NRA and said we need a spokesperson. The problem is simply do we have the numbers and the money required to dooo it? With us representing 10% I'm seriously doulbting it. I wish the picture was diffrent but it isn't and the more information I get on the subject the more daunting the task seems. Like I said while everyone puts their eggs in diffrent baskets the greenies are grouping together and make no mistake they are winning. To fight the groups that are against motorized backcountry use we need alot of money and alot of voices. If it continues the way its going it will be a loosing battle. Look at the European influence in the Banff, Canmore, Fernie area and do you think they want the same rules as in Europe of course they do. I guess starting a thread on snow and mud saying is our sport dying is great but what we need to do as a group is come together and work to keep areas open. Sorry to sound dissmal but I still don't think peeps realise how fast it's happening and by the time we wake up as a recreational user group it will be to late.JMHO:d

 

[Modman]

I think by simply looking at the sales stats you are diluding yourself about the facts.

First of all, you missed the years of highest economic growth, 2008, and 2009. Yeah, maybe people bought less sleds in 2010 due to tougher economic times, but those sleds from 1997 (also a strong year for the economy) are still on the hill. Without the numbers of how many people are actually participating in the sport, you can't make a valid argument that the sport is dying.

I agree that we need PR, but I think we also need to look at ourselves and what we are contributing as individuals. Being respectful of our surroundings, and educating others can go a long way.

The highest years of economic growth were not much higher than the average, but still on the decline compared to mid 90's.

I can tell you I have 2 late 90's sleds and I am easily in the 5% minority on the hill when riding them, at least as far as western AB riders are concerned. In SE BC I ride with only one guy that has a sled that is as old as mine are, majority of the sleds out there are at least 2003-2004 or newer.

Cumulative we are probably more #'s now on the hill then before, I do agree there. However if you take the 10 yr rolling average for sales and add the rate of decline - our sport is at risk. example: 2000 sleds a yr for 10 yrs is 20,000 sleds. 8,000 sleds a year for 10 yrs is 80,000 sleds. if the average from 2000 to 2010 is less than the average from 1990 to 2000, there is a decline in sales.

Down the road, that lack of initial sales will translate into lack of sleds on the hill (as long as the initial sales stay low). We've seen a decline in sales from 1997, and even if some of the old iron is still out there, getting parts to keep it running is getting harder and harder. for example - Ski Doo has pretty much stopped making parts for the S chassis sleds, so anything older than 1999 is relying on the used and salvage markets. Around the 10 yr mark, most sleds need at least a decent major overhaul, and if parts aren't available, people will just not be able to keep that sled running.

 

[Teth-Air]

The snow boarders are the new bread of sledders. They get into it thinking of a sled as a tool and then they soon throw away the board. Many old time sledders laugh at their girly outfits and the stupidity of no helmet(some) but we need to welcome them into keep the sport going.

 

[~Rowdy~]

The snow boarders are the new bread of sledders. They get into it thinking of a sled as a tool and then they soon throw away the board. Many old time sledders laugh at their girly outfits and the stupidity of no helmet(some) but we need to welcome them into keep the sport going.

That is the reason I bought my sled. I brought my board twice and could care less if I ever bring it again. I love sledding as is. Amazing sport, sooo happy I got into it last year even thought it was a little intimidating getting into it completely alone.

 

[Pistonbroke]

The snow boarders are the new bread of sledders. They get into it thinking of a sled as a tool and then they soon throw away the board. Many old time sledders laugh at their girly outfits and the stupidity of no helmet(some) but we need to welcome them into keep the sport going.

I used to board 30 days a year until I met the wife, who got me into sledding.

The board has collected dust in the basement ever since :d

 

[Bogger]

yes our sport is dying.....

mainly because our apathy is pathetic.... send a fawking letter people...



View attachment OHV letter.doc

 

[ferniesnow]

The snow boarders are the new bread of sledders. They get into it thinking of a sled as a tool and then they soon throw away the board. Many old time sledders laugh at their girly outfits and the stupidity of no helmet(some) but we need to welcome them into keep the sport going.

The largest group increase in the membership in Fernie has been sled/skiers and sled/boarders.

They are fed up with the rules, the line ups, and time frame on the ski hill. They are using the back-country in exciting ways for jumps and drops where the sledders just can't access.

 

[awied]

It’s great to have this discussion. There is a bit of confusion about organized snowmobiling. There is the Canadian Council of Snowmobile Organizations (CCSO) and the American Council of Snowmobile Associations (ACSA) who represent the Canadian and American Provincial and State Snowmobile Associations. The International Snowmobile Council (ISC) represents the national associations including Sweden. The International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association represents the Industry. (ISMA)
These and other snowmobile organizations meet annually at the International Snowmobile Congress - in Calgary this year on June 1 to 4.
Snowmobile clubs belong to their Provincial Association – two associations in BC have their member clubs who they work for. There are other provinces that have more than one provincial association representing their clubs. Clubs join their Provincial association for the services that they want and expect to receive.
The snowmobile club is where the tracks hit the snow. The snowmobile club organizes, protects, expands and looks after its snowmobile area. The provincial association is supposed to works with and for its clubs with Provincial Government Ministries and with other organizations such as the Canadian Avalanche Association, Outdoor Recreation Council, Heliski Canada, ATV BC, and Regional Districts and with the Manufacturers and Dealers Association to get the support the clubs require. Snowmobile clubs are where the snowmobilers should be putting their money. They should be joining and working with clubs. Unfortunately this is not happening anywhere near how it should be. The average membership in any snowmobile club is only 10% of the riders in their community joined up and paying fees. 90% freeload on the work and money from the few. On the other hand, many snowmobilers who are members of their local club also join other clubs where they ride. VARDA/Timberline Snow Goers in Valemount , for example, has 10 times as many out of town members as local members but They still have only a small fraction of the regular riders in Valemount and those who visit Valemount as members. This same state of affairs exists with every club in B.C. I have been an active worker in Provincial and National Associations for over 30 years and it never ceases to amaze me how snowmobile clubs can manage to do so much with so little support. They just continue fighting and doing their part against sometimes seemingly unbeatable odds to keep the sport they love growing and to keep our right to ride.
I am the membership chairman for ABCSC – I looking forward to all of our clubs having more members next year than this year instead of just under a third of them showing an increase in membership for the 5th consecutive year.
Arnold

 

[MP Kid]

And there you have it folks, 'awied' hit the nail square on the head; and I quote,

The snowmobile club is where the tracks hit the snow



Let's not kid around here, let me use Calgary as an example, (please no bashing, just an example of scale). Ask yourself why in a city of a million people there is now only one club with a hundred or so members(help me out anyone?), and probably a handful of active members\leaders. Are there no sledders in Calgary? Is it because they think that if they don't ride in AB they don't need to belong to an AB club or better yet the ASA?

The answer is simple, Culture.

For anyone who works in the energy industry, they can tell you the buzz word is having, and being a part of the safety culture. If you don't want to be part of that culture, you'll be looking for another industry. So how do you get there? It was mentioned in an earlier post that there seems to be the 10% rule and these same 10% are also members of clubs in BC as well. So the real question should be how do we get the 90% of others to buy in to the 'culture of belonging' to their local club?

Food for thought?

 

[Teth-Air]

And there you have it folks, 'awied' hit the nail square on the head; and I quote,

The snowmobile club is where the tracks hit the snow



Let's not kid around here, let me use Calgary as an example, (please no bashing, just an example of scale). Ask yourself why in a city of a million people there is now only one club with a hundred or so members(help me out anyone?), and probably a handful of active members\leaders. Are there no sledders in Calgary? Is it because they think that if they don't ride in AB they don't need to belong to an AB club or better yet the ASA?

The answer is simple, Culture.

For anyone who works in the energy industry, they can tell you the buzz word is having, and being a part of the safety culture. If you don't want to be part of that culture, you'll be looking for another industry. So how do you get there? It was mentioned in an earlier post that there seems to be the 10% rule and these same 10% are also members of clubs in BC as well. So the real question should be how do we get the 90% of others to buy in to the 'culture of belonging' to their local club?

Food for thought?

My wife and I attended a club meeting a couple years ago. It was accross the city (Calgary) and was a couple hours long. The meeting was very slow and i could not get my wife to go back. Most of the members were older and I did not feel I had enough in common with them other than sledding. I want to socialize with other sledders but need a different format closer to home.

 

[Modman]

It’s great to have this discussion. There is a bit of confusion about organized snowmobiling. There is the Canadian Council of Snowmobile Organizations (CCSO) and the American Council of Snowmobile Associations (ACSA) who represent the Canadian and American Provincial and State Snowmobile Associations. The International Snowmobile Council (ISC) represents the national associations including Sweden. The International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association represents the Industry. (ISMA)
These and other snowmobile organizations meet annually at the International Snowmobile Congress - in Calgary this year on June 1 to 4.
Snowmobile clubs belong to their Provincial Association – two associations in BC have their member clubs who they work for. There are other provinces that have more than one provincial association representing their clubs. Clubs join their Provincial association for the services that they want and expect to receive.
The snowmobile club is where the tracks hit the snow. The snowmobile club organizes, protects, expands and looks after its snowmobile area. The provincial association is supposed to works with and for its clubs with Provincial Government Ministries and with other organizations such as the Canadian Avalanche Association, Outdoor Recreation Council, Heliski Canada, ATV BC, and Regional Districts and with the Manufacturers and Dealers Association to get the support the clubs require. Snowmobile clubs are where the snowmobilers should be putting their money. They should be joining and working with clubs. Unfortunately this is not happening anywhere near how it should be. The average membership in any snowmobile club is only 10% of the riders in their community joined up and paying fees. 90% freeload on the work and money from the few. On the other hand, many snowmobilers who are members of their local club also join other clubs where they ride. VARDA/Timberline Snow Goers in Valemount , for example, has 10 times as many out of town members as local members but They still have only a small fraction of the regular riders in Valemount and those who visit Valemount as members. This same state of affairs exists with every club in B.C. I have been an active worker in Provincial and National Associations for over 30 years and it never ceases to amaze me how snowmobile clubs can manage to do so much with so little support. They just continue fighting and doing their part against sometimes seemingly unbeatable odds to keep the sport they love growing and to keep our right to ride.
I am the membership chairman for ABCSC – I looking forward to all of our clubs having more members next year than this year instead of just under a third of them showing an increase in membership for the 5th consecutive year.
Arnold

All good points, the local clubs are the grassroots of the sport and I'm all about advocating for increased rider support, but again, not many of the local clubs can reach the greater audience. I think releasing some of the stats you mention above, would be a step in the right direction. So many people do not realize the lack of support for their local club.

At the end of the day, I'm still a man of action. Now that the season is starting to wind down, I will be contacting some of you guys to discuss further ideas and what we can do to promote this.

What are your thoughts on if all the clubs were represented by one voice? Would the local level be comfortable allowing a PR firm to speak for them on a higher playing field (like to provincial media outlets)? Please comment.

 

[Bogger]

My wife and I attended a club meeting a couple years ago. It was accross the city (Calgary) and was a couple hours long. The meeting was very slow and i could not get my wife to go back. Most of the members were older and I did not feel I had enough in common with them other than sledding. I want to socialize with other sledders but need a different format closer to home.

Our club (active members) is a generation ahead of me and the wife as well (some of them are 2 ahead of us), luckily they are young at heart and love to laugh and joke around..... that said they take the business side of it very serious and are passionate about the cause.... but are very welcoming and appreciate a younger generation stepping up

 

[polarice]

And there you have it folks, 'awied' hit the nail square on the head; and I quote,

The snowmobile club is where the tracks hit the snow



Let's not kid around here, let me use Calgary as an example, (please no bashing, just an example of scale). Ask yourself why in a city of a million people there is now only one club with a hundred or so members(help me out anyone?), and probably a handful of active members\leaders. Are there no sledders in Calgary? Is it because they think that if they don't ride in AB they don't need to belong to an AB club or better yet the ASA?

The answer is simple, Culture.

For anyone who works in the energy industry, they can tell you the buzz word is having, and being a part of the safety culture. If you don't want to be part of that culture, you'll be looking for another industry. So how do you get there? It was mentioned in an earlier post that there seems to be the 10% rule and these same 10% are also members of clubs in BC as well. So the real question should be how do we get the 90% of others to buy in to the 'culture of belonging' to their local club?

Food for thought?

i live in the south end of calgary and belong to the crowsnow riders for the simple reason thats where i ride

 

[Teth-Air]

I have bought 2 Revy club memberships for the last 2 years. I might pick a different club next season as I ride many areas.

 

[retiredpop]

My wife and I attended a club meeting a couple years ago. It was accross the city (Calgary) and was a couple hours long. The meeting was very slow and i could not get my wife to go back. Most of the members were older and I did not feel I had enough in common with them other than sledding. I want to socialize with other sledders but need a different format closer to home.

Why not get some of your friends and take them to a meeting of your local Calgary club. You know how it goes..Tell a friend who tells a friend who tells a friend etc. Soon you will be surrounded by those who have common interests with you. Get involved and change the format. Don't use this as an excuse not to join your local club. That's a copout and you know it.

 

[Teth-Air]

Why not get some of your friends and take them to a meeting of your local Calgary club. You know how it goes..Tell a friend who tells a friend who tells a friend etc. Soon you will be surrounded by those who have common interests with you. Get involved and change the format. Don't use this as an excuse not to join your local club. That's a copout and you know it.

I would like to but most of they guys I ride with are much younger than me and are very unreliable at this stage in their life. I am surprized and amazed when they can commit to sledding in advance of 24 hours notice.

Is there interest for a new club in the South end of Calgary? One that is less formal with out minutes and voting etc. as I am already a member of way too many associations and these young guys won't buy into that right away.

They want to have a place to have a beer, watch sled videos and even work on the machines. I'm sure many structured clubs started this way.