Fines for creek crossings?

[rzrgade]

Aohva has offered to speak at our snow and mud jamboree ...what was done with this offer , I am not aware of .
The offer to speak to the members of S&M was made by the president of AOHVA to me in person ,and I in turn passed it along to the jamboree organizers . So IMO aohva is trying to explain what they are doing , trying to do and what their plans are going forward .

 

[rzrgade]

And on a side note after 3 days of riding near outwest campgrounds we saw hundreds of creek crossings , erosion in dump truck size flows and not a single bridge ....all on thousands of acres of " logging trails , and new roads"

Seriously, it you want to see run off mud , erosion , clay mud,stumps , ditches pushed meters high and wash outs running down to the ram river etc etc ... Go look at the logging out there ..
After seeing this first hand ... IMO the few quads On a long weekend could not do that much stream / wet area damage in 10000 years ...
And this is a fact , not heresay at a meeting !!
We witnessed it first hand !

 

[LBZ]

And on a side note after 3 days of riding near outwest campgrounds we saw hundreds of creek crossings , erosion in dump truck size flows and not a single bridge ....all on thousands of acres of " logging trails , and new roads"

Seriously, it you want to see run off mud , erosion , clay mud,stumps , ditches pushed meters high and wash outs running down to the ram river etc etc ... Go look at the logging out there ..
After seeing this first hand ... IMO the few quads On a long weekend could not do that much stream / wet area damage in 10000 years ...
And this is a fact , not heresay at a meeting !!
We witnessed it first hand !

This is what I've been saying for 10 years.

Trails that ohv's tore up are completely taken back by nature as little as 5 years later if left alone and all on their own. Most you would never even know the amount of traffic that has been down some of them.

But logging roads with minimal controls put in place for erosion still look like $hit 20+ years later. But ohv's are the bad guys killing the fish supposedly. I just don't get it.

As far as I'm concerned a stay out of the major tributaries and all named streams within 500m of where they join, and the rest of the streams just cross with care is a good enough policy.

 

[drew562]

You must have been near falls creek. Clear cut as far as the eye can see. In as little as the last 5 years it's all gone. Not one greenie planting trees either.

 

[TylerG]

Aohva has offered to speak at our snow and mud jamboree ...what was done with this offer , I am not aware of .
The offer to speak to the members of S&M was made by the president of AOHVA to me in person ,and I in turn passed it along to the jamboree organizers . So IMO aohva is trying to explain what they are doing , trying to do and what their plans are going forward .

I reached out to them, never got confirmation from them

 

[Kaz Dog]

Aohva has offered to speak at our snow and mud jamboree ...what was done with this offer , I am not aware of .
The offer to speak to the members of S&M was made by the president of AOHVA to me in person ,and I in turn passed it along to the jamboree organizers . So IMO aohva is trying to explain what they are doing , trying to do and what their plans are going forward .

Sounds like a good thing!

Do they send out a monthly or quarterly newsletter to their member clubs from the executive to highlight trails they are working on/have finished, government contacts taken place/upcoming, and other information paramount to recreating with O.H.V.'s here in Alberta outdoors?

 

[Kaz Dog]

And on a side note after 3 days of riding near outwest campgrounds we saw hundreds of creek crossings , erosion in dump truck size flows and not a single bridge ....all on thousands of acres of " logging trails , and new roads"

Seriously, it you want to see run off mud , erosion , clay mud,stumps , ditches pushed meters high and wash outs running down to the ram river etc etc ... Go look at the logging out there ..
After seeing this first hand ... IMO the few quads On a long weekend could not do that much stream / wet area damage in 10000 years ...
And this is a fact , not heresay at a meeting !!
We witnessed it first hand !

Absolutely agree, the forestry industry has there part to do to clean up past environmental damage. This is part of the S.S.R.P. process down south here, as I see it.

This statement "the few quads On a long weekend" I need to ask about. I spent the long weekend in Dutch Creek, north of Crowsnest Pass, with the Calgary ATV Recreation Association, and enjoyed a ride with them on Saturday. This was a long weekend. There were "a ton" of O.H.V.'s in this area on the long weekend. I am not sure of numbers on "regular" two day weekends, but there was a lot of activity all over the landscape, and the need for better trails, IMO. Of note to me was the absence of bridges over water/wetlands. And I wonder how much of this problem has been created/not addressed by "the government/department responsible" by not letting responsible clubs with insurance put bridges in place?

 

[Kaz Dog]

This is what I've been saying for 10 years.

Trails that ohv's tore up are completely taken back by nature as little as 5 years later if left alone and all on their own. Most you would never even know the amount of traffic that has been down some of them.

But logging roads with minimal controls put in place for erosion still look like $hit 20+ years later. But ohv's are the bad guys killing the fish supposedly. I just don't get it.

As far as I'm concerned a stay out of the major tributaries and all named streams within 500m of where they join, and the rest of the streams just cross with care is a good enough policy.

I would disagree with you. A better policy would be to allow for/construct a designated trail system with bridges over all water and wetlands. Bigger bridges over bigger flowing water down to smaller constructed works over short, wet areas. It is possible, we just need to have a government put it into practise. With our past governments' inaction on a designated trail system, and the current governments "environmental leanings", I am not sure what is going to come out in the final SSRP proposal, but something is coming out. And we working on this process are being told that this is going to be used as a blue print for the rest of the province, by this government. SW Alberta is the Minister of the AEP's "backyard", she is keen to do something, and respond to the problems in the backcountry.

Ask anyone who has been south of the border to their designated trail systems, I have never heard of a complaint about them.

 

[LBZ]

Not everyone wants to ride designated groomed trails. I prefer a challenge as opposed to putting on 120km in 6 hrs.

 

[Zrock]

Absolutely agree, the forestry industry has there part to do to clean up past environmental damage. This is part of the S.S.R.P. process down south here, as I see it.

This statement "the few quads On a long weekend" I need to ask about. I spent the long weekend in Dutch Creek, north of Crowsnest Pass, with the Calgary ATV Recreation Association, and enjoyed a ride with them on Saturday. This was a long weekend. There were "a ton" of O.H.V.'s in this area on the long weekend. I am not sure of numbers on "regular" two day weekends, but there was a lot of activity all over the landscape, and the need for better trails, IMO. Of note to me was the absence of bridges over water/wetlands. And I wonder how much of this problem has been created/not addressed by "the government/department responsible" by not letting responsible clubs with insurance put bridges in place?

Also the flip side of that is how many clubs ride the trails and ignore the issue? If its anything like i deal with i can see why clubs may ignore the issues.. Iv been fighting for 2 years to get trails registered but have ran into the issue that they are still classified as FSR and it seems no one wants to declassify them so we can register. Very frustrating especially when you have emails out all over the place asking for help and advice and get nothing.

 

[Kaz Dog]

Not everyone wants to ride designated groomed trails. I prefer a challenge as opposed to putting on 120km in 6 hrs.

Not advocating for groomed trails for O.H.V.'s (that just sounds wrong anyway), just "sustainable trails". If you look to the experience south of the border, you will see they have challenging trails that are "not groomed" - and sustainable. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

 

[Kaz Dog]

Also the flip side of that is how many clubs ride the trails and ignore the issue? If its anything like i deal with i can see why clubs may ignore the issues.. Iv been fighting for 2 years to get trails registered but have ran into the issue that they are still classified as FSR and it seems no one wants to declassify them so we can register. Very frustrating especially when you have emails out all over the place asking for help and advice and get nothing.

In some ways, there are not enough clubs. I have been thinking that if more of the individuals/families out there who enjoy recreating on O.H.V.'s would form clubs to take care of specific areas that would be a great improvement. But there are people who just want to show up, enjoy the ride, and go home. Nothing wrong with that, just that if the area is kept open, the only what to do that is to charge more in income taxes or a trail fee/pass to afford the work done by others. The clubs out there now are doing a great job addressing their "home" areas. But they like to recreate on landscapes with no "home club" too.

I feel your pain on the trails issue. Since we do not have a designated trail law and associated systems set up in the process, we have what we have - confusion, and nobody in government wants to do anything. I am addressing this exact issue this Thursday, with both AEP and "the sawmill" (S.L.S.), on the ground at Cataract Creek Snowmobile Trails. It took some persistence, and a lot of "honey", but my day in the field with my AEP forest guy and sawmill guy is happening. One of the issues we will look at is the conversion of a newly installed logging road to harvest an area being converted to a snowmobile trail and the old seismic line "trail" being decommissioned and replanted. Our club will voluntarily take this on, if approved.

 

[rzrgade]

I would disagree with you. A better policy would be to allow for/construct a designated trail system with bridges over all water and wetlands. Bigger bridges over bigger flowing water down to smaller constructed works over short, wet areas. It is possible, we just need to have a government put it into practise. With our past governments' inaction on a designated trail system, and the current governments "environmental leanings", I am not sure what is going to come out in the final SSRP proposal, but something is coming out. And we working on this process are being told that this is going to be used as a blue print for the rest of the province, by this government. SW Alberta is the Minister of the AEP's "backyard", she is keen to do something, and respond to the problems in the backcountry.

Ask anyone who has been south of the border to their designated trail systems, I have never heard of a complaint about them.

I will put this in the most basic terms I can . Most riders DO NOT want a bridge over every wet spot or mud hole . Do you ride the back country ? You would need a bridge every fifty feet where we ride !! As well the way this is going , if I understand you correctly is to bridge ever designated trail ...
That would be a complete and utter failure , as most riders would just go beside the bridges looking for more of a challenge...
I agree with a trail fee , if spent on a FEW bridges where absolutely vital .... Other than that the less government intervention the better ....
as I have stated earlier , if the real issue was truly protecting our wetlands and streams , other industries ore of far greater concern than the OHV community . You should go for a ride in the area I am talking about , although there are hundreds of other areas where industry is a far greater threat than atv use as well ....
This is just my opinion , but everyone I talk to on the trails and campsites ,that are true atv & utv users ,generally agrees....

 

[Kaz Dog]

I will put this in the most basic terms I can . Most riders DO NOT want a bridge over every wet spot or mud hole . Do you ride the back country ? You would need a bridge every fifty feet where we ride !! As well the way this is going , if I understand you correctly is to bridge ever designated trail ...
That would be a complete and utter failure , as most riders would just go beside the bridges looking for more of a challenge...
I agree with a trail fee , if spent on a FEW bridges where absolutely vital .... Other than that the less government intervention the better ....
as I have earlier , if the real issue was protecting put wetlands and streams , other industries out of far greater concern than the OHV community . You should go for a ride in the area I am talking about , although there are hundreds of other areas where industry is a far greater threat than atv use as well ....
This is just my opinion , but everyone I talk to on the trails and campsites generally agrees....

I will answer your post here in basic terms as well.

The current O.H.V. use of public lands is not sustainable - meaning "touching water/rivers/streams/creeks/flowing water" (currently illegal but not enforced strictly) and wetlands (read mud here). The environmentalist "lobby" has increasing put this on the provincial government's "plate" with lawsuits and federal laws on the environment over that last 15 - 20 years. I had not paid attention to this, but have done my research to see "how we have got here now".

So, in the future, under our current government (because the last governments did not do as much as the environmentalists wanted, but did enact a provincial process - Regional Plans) they are working hard to make recreational planning (read here - motorized control) over a greater area of public land (as they may only have approx. 3 1/2 years to do so.....) happen.

Do I ride the back country -Yes. This is why there is loud talk of closing access to areas the are "unsustainable" - "You would need a bridge every fifty feet where we ride !!" is a great example. I am not saying that this would happen where you are referring to, but if/when the law is changed/enacted, all the environmentalists would need to know is where these areas are, and put them at AEP's "doorstep".

"if I understand you correctly is to bridge ever designated trail ... That would be a complete and utter failure , as most riders would just go beside the bridges looking for more of a challenge..." This is what is being address along the eastern slopes now. With the federal order on the trout issue, AEP is looking to severely restrict - to almost not allow - even bridge crossings of creeks/streams/rivers. When a rider is caught, there is talk of seizing the machine until a extremely high fine or court appearance is made. I am not making this up, this is what citizens are asking for at the meetings I attend to defend O.H.V. use "in the backcountry".

"I agree with a trail fee , if spent on a FEW bridges where absolutely vital .... Other than that the less government intervention the better ...." - it never ceases to amaze me how individuals forget that "the government" can be or is a reflection of the whole population of the province. Until O.H.V.'ers realize that we are the minority of the 3.2 million people in Alberta, the attitude of "we have always done it this way" will not go away. We are a minority, and "we in the fight" are addressing another very vocal minority yelling for change. The majority in the middle will go one way or another based on how "realistic" each side presents their argument. So far - as I see it - the argument to protect the water/environment is winning out over the argument to let me O.H.V. anywhere I want and do whatever I want.

"if the real issue was protecting put wetlands and streams , other industries out of far greater concern than the OHV community . You should go for a ride in the area I am talking about , although there are hundreds of other areas where industry is a far greater threat than atv use as well ...." Other industries are being addressed - just look at the Castle area shut down and Spray Lake Sawmills being kicked out. Industry is being address, and so is the OHV community - everybody is being held to account. We must look at ourselves and ask - what do we need to do to not lose access?

 

[Sledderglen]

Tough words to understand but that's coming down the line. I have said for years now that change is coming if we want it or not. Better to get organized and start changing and get ready. There will be a reduction of the allowed number of trails allowed in a area based on density per square Km. Scary but that's the way its going. The other option is to buy hiking boots.

 

[Bogger]

Tough words to understand but that's coming down the line. I have said for years now that change is coming if we want it or not. Better to get organized and start changing and get ready. There will be a reduction of the allowed number of trails allowed in a area based on density per square Km. Scary but that's the way its going. The other option is to buy hiking boots.

Or a big chunk of private land....

 

[rzrgade]

So the current government is quite alright with shutting down a billion $ + a year industry .... Close it all down and see how long before the local economy of the area will be begging for it to reopen .....! While holding the government accountable politically for the financial devastation The people and buisness's of the affected areas financial losses will be catastrophic ! IMO , the government is asking for way too much and , building a few bridges wil not appease the treehuggers in any case ! They want total closure to motorized vehicles , including sleds .

Also where does the money come from to hire the amount of enforcement needed to cover thousands of square miles ?? Not to mention the cost of maintaining said bridges and trails ??
While I thank all of you involved for your efforts , personlly I think you are on the wrong track in fighting this battle ...
The powers that be have you believing their BS ...and I see little mention of industry getting shut down over this . Of all the threads on this topic not once have I heard about the economic cost of the result of closing down/limiting the back country...
1 in 5 Albertans own an OHV .... Pull that out of the economy ?
While we are the minority of the province in terms of OHV owners , our financial spin off if exponential ... Big time !!
It seems you are quite happy with the new government and blame the old for all the issues . This would seem to fit with your total lack of financial accountability & understanding as to what the proposed rule changes would eventually end up costing . Much like everything the NDP touchs , great big ideas , huge debt , and no clue how to pay for it ...that's what I see !!

I might expect it from the NDP , which In any case will not be around when a "real" government comes back into power...
Anyways nothing personnel , but I think you are being played , much like the natives and greenies play the energy sector !

I also put forth this question to ponder ..... What would the mountain sledding community say if they were all forced to stay on a government approved & recognized trail or face huge fines ?
And please don't tell me this is a different issue , because you have quite clearly indicated the meat of the matter or the OHV rights vrs the the rights of the environmentalists in terms of crown land use ?

Just remember $$$ always win....,!

 

[imdoo'n]

Can't say if yer right or wrong! Didn't take them long to shut in oil n gas industry or put the coal industry into the toilet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rzrgade]

Can't say if yer right or wrong! Didn't take them long to shut in oil n gas industry or put the coal industry into the toilet.
Yes and this will be one more tax payer funded financial blunder ; too please the few greenies that voted NDP . If the current path the NDP is not changed ( and quickly) none of them will be around to worry about bridges , the day after the next election ...people talk evnviroment lots when there is lots of $$$ around , when half the people in the province can't find a job because of unwarranted closures of viable buisness's by this NDP government ..... They will be worried where the next meal comes from . Not where the next hike is ....

 

[RhinoWhino]

Just buy a boat , cross any river u want .