Deadly sledding? Article in today's Edmonton Sun

[hurtinalbertin]

I agree the course alone won't help you but the course, saftey equipment, common sense and experence all together will. These things don't make you bullet proff but together they do better your odds. I took the course last year with Zacktracs(Lori and Randy) I thought I knew enough before but it really opened my eyes to what I didn't know from reading the conditions to proper use of a becon. I believe it was well worth the money and I will take it agian this year as a refresher. If you can spend $15000.00 on a sled whats an extra $300 to learn something that could save your life or some elses. Thats my 2 cents. Ride safe and have fun this year

 

[Modman]

This is always a hot topic - nobody take what I have to say personally OK?

That being said - What I see on the hill is stupidity. Taking the course means nothing if there is no application of the knowledge. Far far far too often do we see people doing the dumbest things imaginable because they think having the knowledge makes them somehow the wiser, but they never apply the knowledge to save their own @$$.

I can tell you about theories of mass transfer, fluid dynamics and Newton's laws of gravity etc, etc. does this make me a smart guy? If I walk underneath a suspended load at work and get squished because the heavy load fell on my head and made me into a pancake - does knowing all this fancy stuff make me any smarter than the next guy?? I would say the guy with the lowest IQ on the jobsite, who was smart enough to not walk under the load and die, but knows nothing about mass transfer, etc, is probably smarter than me, wouldn't you? He recognized the danger and even though he didn't understand the principles behind it, he was able to put two and two together and realized it was a bad decision to walk under the load, and so he applied his knowledge (regardless of how limited) and walked around the danger area. Me - I was overconfident with my knowledge that I knew the rated load capacity of the lifting sling and so I walked underneath it. Now I'm dead.

Sledding is dangerous, but if you apply the knowledge, you can lessen the risk. There will be other days to climb that hill.

When I dig pits on the hill, and guys will stop and see what you're doing, say to me that its pointless since all slopes are different and what are you going to do? ? dig a pit on every slope?? Then they laugh and ride off. We'll sit back and watch them ride right into a avy area and start stabbing the biggest, steepest hill in the biggest terrain trap. Sure they took the avy course, but will it save them?? If they applied the knowledge and dug a pit or read the terrain for 2 seconds, they might have a fighting chance, but they've been to this place 1000 times before and its never slid, so what does anyone else know right?

I shrug and keep diggin'. That being said, I probably don't dig enough pits and I probably should dig more. I'm not going to say I'm perfect be any means.

We're victims of our own arrogance, overconfidence, and mis-information. Too many people getting away with riding avy areas and nothing happening, with each pass up the hill, they gain confidence, until the worst happens. Sledding is a macho sport, we're supposed to be macho guys and gals right?? We laugh in the face of danger right? We're not afraid of dying right?

Tell your buddies kid that his Dad won't be coming home - we'll see how tough you are.

Get the knowledge, get the gear. Use the knowledge, so that you never have to use the gear.

 

[fnDan]

The media wants to sell a product and fear and ignorance are their biggest tools. I doubt that zacstracs had any opportunity to determine how that article was finally put together.

The eye opener for me when I took the avy class was the rescue. You need a good leader and be organized to do it quickly and efficiently. They let us go and didn't say a word when we dug straight down on our dummy victim. That poor dummy got stepped on and hit with a shovel a lot. I also realized I needed a shovel with a longer handle with a metal blade and a better probe. Common sense tells me that the hill I may want to climb will be there if I decide to ride it some other day.

As far as digging on every slope, I would assume that a weak layer is probably everywhere in the area I'm riding. Is that knowledge or common sense?

 

[ratpak]

Wow! I can't believe the level of stupidity in some of these comments.

Avalanche training is a "tool", just like your beacon, probe, and shovel. If you think "common sense" is all you need, you don't have any...

Next time you go sledding, just leave all that crap at home and use your "common sense" instead.

I'm sure the families of last years' victims would argue with you about whether or not their lost love ones had any "common sense".

"Common sense" should have told most of us to stay home last year or play in the fields...

Why bother training firefighters, police, or rescue personel? Can't we just hire people with "common sense" and send them into burning buildings and dangerous situations?

Darwin WILL eventually catch up with you!

 

[Powertool29]

Has anyone else been watching Canada's Worst Driver ??
each and everyone of them have a valid driver's licence..
they have supposively received the proper training or at least passed the driving test.
But none of them have an ounce of common sense..
and don't deserve to be driving as they bring greater odds of us being injured.
Just because you have the training does not mean they comprehend the information and have the ability to utilize it.
Common Sense is the basic building block to survival.
Common Sense is not a tool or an inherited trait.
Some people have it and some don't.

Personally I think that the cost for an individual or individuals requiring the assistance of search and rescue or medical staff should be responsible for those costs. If you require an ambulance the cost is the burden of the individual through insurance or other means as they will send you a bill.
why is it different for someone making the decision to go vertical in the steep and deep when conditions are extreme?? You are taking that risk you should be responsible for your actions.

 

[Powertool29]

Personally I would take someone with a lot of Common Sense without avy training on a sledding trip over someone with the avy training and no Common Sense anyday !

 

[Foxstar45]

Personally I would take someone with a lot of Common Sense without avy training on a sledding trip over someone with the avy training and no Common Sense anyday !

This isn't a legitimate choice this is just hypothetical mumbo jumbo. You can ride with people with both common sence and training not just either or. I don't get your post.

 

[Iron Horse Racing]

On a job site’s we have a goal of ZERO incidents/accidents … on an annual basis we’ve never achieved it YET….We keep trying how you say…..Training, discussions, reviewing the accidents that do happen and constantly looking for ways of improving…..then when we find one what do we do……train/teach the new method…..in hopes that we will one day achieve our goal.
Sledding should be no different, will training alone solve the problem no it won’t….but it will never improve without it.
The training that I took along with my son and 18 other willing participants added yet another tool for us to use, and it taught us some very essential methods of how to apply those tools.

Thanks for that Lori

“ Remember learning how to use the equipment fast and efficiently isn’t to save your life, so you better know who your riding with and know that if you make a mistake and get caught that your buddies have the TRAINING to save your $SS……” Lori

The new bzz....."Ride hard, Ride safe so you can go home......."

 

[Powertool29]

This isn't a legitimate choice this is just hypothetical mumbo jumbo. You can ride with people with both common sence and training not just either or. I don't get your post.

Let me put it another way...
we "ALL" have a choice who we go riding with
You can't choose your family, but you can choose the friends you go riding with. I choose to go riding with people that have a level head and common sense who can act appropriately is important situations. Training is very important as long as the individual is trainable and retains the information. I agree that refresher courses are a must, because an avy course taken years ago is not much good anymore and an avy course cannot prepare you for every possible situation. If something happens up on the hill that you did not learn in the course (or you forgot what to do) is not much good without common sense.
I want to be the person (or have a buddy) that says we should not go there this time because of the conditions and have the sense to listen to them, instead of taking off and hitting the hill that looks unsafe just because there are not any tracks yet. Maybe there is a reason that no one has gone that way. All I am saying in most cases that common sense will prevail over the most advanced training.

 

[maxwell]

Wow! I can't believe the level of stupidity in some of these comments.

Avalanche training is a "tool", just like your beacon, probe, and shovel. If you think "common sense" is all you need, you don't have any...

Next time you go sledding, just leave all that crap at home and use your "common sense" instead.

I'm sure the families of last years' victims would argue with you about whether or not their lost love ones had any "common sense".

"Common sense" should have told most of us to stay home last year or play in the fields...

Why bother training firefighters, police, or rescue personel? Can't we just hire people with "common sense" and send them into burning buildings and dangerous situations?

Darwin WILL eventually catch up with you!

LOL i would "guess" ( which would be about as accurate as loris guess that 10% of us have training) that out of those 25 deaths last season 75% had avalanche training. as i followed all the stories very closely almost every one of them had some sort of training or extreme amounts of experience. all to many times we were all shocked by who the victim was. really? him? he was the safest guy on the mountain!!

i dont have mother natures digits so i cant really ask her if its my turn so ill just play it safe and use my skills and training. once again not saying training shouldnt be had. but it did not save those victims last year. pppeeerrriiooodddd

 

[gorpet]

Good Day

I read that article and I was thinking a little bit different, here goes a few of you just might get your panties in a knot. First of this is my first year with a snowmobile, but for the last 41 years I have been a avid skier. I have spent many days in the bush, I have 57 days of cat skiing and lots on my skins, I have my avi coarse and seen them come down and I have lost a member of my family due to one.
What I want to talk about is Hi-marking and doing the Chutes and WTF is that, I have seen some of the video's on this site and people are doing very stupid things. When you do stupid things in the bush people die. I have maybe 7 days on a rented sled in the Fernie area, skiied and sledded Harvey Pass and when ever on a sled I am with esxperianced people. For the most part I don't think its about people with out avi training as its about people do stupid things. Hope evryone day is a good one.

 

[maxwell]

have to disagree with the chutes. i have never seen one come down. its usually the wide open slabs. chutes have alot of rocks and obstacles turns and bends that hold the snow very well. not that it cant happen and im sure it does. the machines going up them usually have what it takes to go over the top also. any avalanche i have ever seen is from someone making a large loop and coming back down. but yes. someone that takes a stab at a wide open hill and makes a big stupid loop and comes back down is putting themselves at risk as there is alot of snow on that slab. not going to disagree with you. i ride every weekend of the season almost. so roughly 50 days for me. i see AT LEAST one stupid thing every day. its unreal. good example would be the highmarking in avalanche valley last season...yeah..smart

 

[Foxstar45]

have to disagree with the chutes. i have never seen one come down. its usually the wide open slabs. chutes have alot of rocks and obstacles turns and bends that hold the snow very well. not that it cant happen and im sure it does. the machines going up them usually have what it takes to go over the top also. any avalanche i have ever seen is from someone making a large loop and coming back down. but yes. someone that takes a stab at a wide open hill and makes a big stupid loop and comes back down is putting themselves at risk as there is alot of snow on that slab. not going to disagree with you. i ride every weekend of the season almost. so roughly 50 days for me. i see AT LEAST one stupid thing every day. its unreal. good example would be the highmarking in avalanche valley last season...yeah..smart

Slightly off topic but, how does a person safely turn out of a highmark/climb if he doesn't make it over the top? Small loop?

 

[Powertool29]

Slightly off topic but, how does a person safely turn out of a highmark/climb if he doesn't make it over the top? Small loop?

First question that goes through my mind is, "what is on the other side"??
and if you can't make it over the top it is a difficult thing to say what to do.
you should always plan for a way out, if you can't turn around your options are to try and bury the sled in so it does not come back down backwards or you bail off and try to grab onto something so the sled does not run you over and let the sled find its own way back down.

 

[maxwell]

Slightly off topic but, how does a person safely turn out of a highmark/climb if he doesn't make it over the top? Small loop?

tightest loop would be the best. but unfortunately if you dont make your climb you run a risk of the slab sliding since you've compromised the slab strength with your track. and if the danger is high every time another person takes a stab for the next highmark at that spot it gets weaker and weaker and weaker.

ive watched people poke at a face ALL DAY and at the end of the day when the last guy went it broke free and luckily it was a small layer so it didnt compile to alot at the bottom.

 

[Powertool29]

Slightly off topic but, how does a person safely turn out of a highmark/climb if he doesn't make it over the top? Small loop?

I find it a lot easier going up than it is coming back down..

 

[Modman]

Good Day

I read that article and I was thinking a little bit different, here goes a few of you just might get your panties in a knot. First of this is my first year with a snowmobile, but for the last 41 years I have been a avid skier. I have spent many days in the bush, I have 57 days of cat skiing and lots on my skins, I have my avi coarse and seen them come down and I have lost a member of my family due to one.
What I want to talk about is Hi-marking and doing the Chutes and WTF is that, I have seen some of the video's on this site and people are doing very stupid things. When you do stupid things in the bush people die. I have maybe 7 days on a rented sled in the Fernie area, skiied and sledded Harvey Pass and when ever on a sled I am with esxperianced people. For the most part I don't think its about people with out avi training as its about people do stupid things. Hope evryone day is a good one.

OK - so now I have to ask - where do you ski? Most "sled-skiers" I have seen go out, ride the sled to the top and take some nice big wide turns on a wide open face with a big terrain trap at the bottom, if you are going to start a slide, this is as good a place as any. I have also watched skiers cut directly across windloaded slopes to try and get to that primo ski spot down that ridge. Again, not a smart idea. We helped extract a sled from a creek in Fernie in 2008 - backcountry skiers, first day on 800cc sleds, had g/f's on the back going skiing and these guys were in WAYYYYY over their heads. Had we not been lucky to find them down in their hole about 8 ft, they would have had a tough walk out (that was the week they got 5 ft of snow).

Harvey Pass, depending on the slope, is not a place for beginners and can be very scary at times. I realize that you are a very experienced skier, but often times, skiing can be just as dangerous as sledding. This is the first year in history that more sledders than skiers died in the backcountry. Yes it was a bad year for us, but it feels like we are being drug through the mud over one year, lets see what 09/10 holds. All the cards aren't on the table.

Not directing this at you, but I'm sorry, no one can point fingers at sledders and say WTF is all this highmarking about, when I've seen skiers do just as many stupid things as sledders. Highmarking is only one aspect of sledding, while some guys are religious high-markers, they are the minority in my opinion, but we are all protrayed that way in the media (guilty by association). None of the guys I ride with high mark more than 1 or 2 slopes a day, they might make one or two passes on that slope for a highmark, and then we move on. The media portray us all as fanatics who go out and spend all day on one hill, poking the same hill until it avalanches on us. That portrayal couldn't be farther from the truth IMO.

I don't want to start an us vs them campaign, I just want people to be safe. Let's all think first. Digging someone out is a scary thing, regardless of how they use the backcountry.

 

[gorpet]

I agree that some skiers are as bad as some bad sledders, skied Harvey for the first time in 1992, enjoy the place, scared of the place. People I ski with are always trying to be safe as well I try to be. On skis my ascent is slow and with thought, when I get to the top I am out of breath and need to rest before picking my way down, and for the most my decent is slow tight and in control. I have had time to look at things.

I do wonder what I will be like with a machine between my legs, instead of taking me 45 minutes to get to the top it will take about 2 mintues, I won't be tired but full of adlenaline. Probably won't need to rest at the top but will come back down trying to get snow in my mouth

This is where I might be dumb, might try to cheat things just for a second. Its not about more sledders, or more skiers getting it, its about back country deaths. I really don't want to experiance a slow suffocating death, one that I caused. I have to be careful for myself and fellow humans. Because my actions can kill them.

 

[BC Sno-Ghost]

Wow! I can't believe the level of stupidity in some of these comments.

Avalanche training is a "tool", just like your beacon, probe, and shovel. If you think "common sense" is all you need, you don't have any...

Next time you go sledding, just leave all that crap at home and use your "common sense" instead.

I'm sure the families of last years' victims would argue with you about whether or not their lost love ones had any "common sense".

"Common sense" should have told most of us to stay home last year or play in the fields...

Why bother training firefighters, police, or rescue personel? Can't we just hire people with "common sense" and send them into burning buildings and dangerous situations?

Darwin WILL eventually catch up with you!

I don't think anyone is implying that"common sense" should be the only tool in your tool box. Nor is anyone saying not to take safety courses because they won't make a difference. Your right, people who think that way will eventually have Darwin catch up with them. As for your point about why train emergency personnel..... ? The Dumb A$$es with no common sense get weeded out during the interview stage of the hiring process. Believe me ..they do try to get hired in these fields. No matter how much training you get at whatever you do career wise or recreation wise, if you don't have common sense you will get hurt or worse. The two must go hand in hand

 

[ratpak]

I agree with what you're saying BC Sno Ghost. My point was that too many people on this thread believe that "common sense" is somehow a tangible and measurable characteristic and that it'll make up for any and all training and precautions.