Can't seem to adjust to Ski-Doo counter-steering...

[FernieHawk]

Anyone else have problems jumping from a Cat or a Polaris to Ski-Doo.

Iv'e been mountain riding for 19 years...started with the old RMK's and for the last 11 years I have been on the M series Cats.

I can jump off my M-series and onto a newer Cat or Polaris with hardly any problems...lots of confidence climbing and side-hilling through the trees on someone else's sled. I cant say the same thing for any Ski-Doo I have ever jumped on for a rip.

On Sunday I took a friends 850 for a little rip in a burn area...loved the low speed steering and handling but as soon as I picked up the pace and started counter steering trough the trees the same old bogyman reared its head. On every Ski-Doo I have ever tried out, from the Rev, XP, XM and now the G4 850, whenever I pick up the pace and start trying higher speed counter steering the bars start bouncing back and forth almost from lock to lock and It's not very confidence inspiring.

Any one else have this problem or suggestions on adapting to the Ski Doo?

A month ago I jumped on another friends new 850 Polaris and was immediately able to ride it like I stole it.

I'm hopefully in line for a new sled in the next couple of years and would like to consider the Doo as a possibility...I know lots of people love em.

 

[tex78]

Anyone else have problems jumping from a Cat or a Polaris to Ski-Doo.

Iv'e been mountain riding for 19 years...started with the old RMK's and for the last 11 years I have been on the M series Cats.

I can jump off my M-series and onto a newer Cat or Polaris with hardly any problems...lots of confidence climbing and side-hilling through the trees on someone else's sled. I cant say the same thing for any Ski-Doo I have ever jumped on for a rip.

On Sunday I took a friends 850 for a little rip in a burn area...loved the low speed steering and handling but as soon as I picked up the pace and started counter steering trough the trees the same old bogyman reared its head. On every Ski-Doo I have ever tried out, from the Rev, XP, XM and now the G4 850, whenever I pick up the pace and start trying higher speed counter steering the bars start bouncing back and forth almost from lock to lock and It's not very confidence inspiring.

Any one else have this problem or suggestions on adapting to the Ski Doo?

A month ago I jumped on another friends new 850 Polaris and was immediately able to ride it like I stole it.

I'm hopefully in line for a new sled in the next couple of years and would like to consider the Doo as a possibility...I know lots of people love em.

Weird, never had that issue on any doo


Now I keep my bars close to in line with stem


Also I found the old m chassis, like 09-10 vintage, very close to my Rev in handling

Where the dragon - Polaris I could never get with the way the bars are


Kind of 180 to you lol

 

[Rene G]

I ride a Polaris and find I can hop on a Cat no problem, but a ski-doo feels weird to me. I find that the XM is better than the XP was, not sure of the G4 as I haven’t had the chance to hop on one yet.

 

[maxwell]

it should feel weird the geometry is completely different and the steering is completely different. your going to need to do more than just hop on one for an hour. It will take you a solid 2 days to get the hang of it and during that time it will be awkward! Once your used to it you wont go back. try moving your body forward more on the machine in a sidehill. Also, you need to make sure the riser block is inline with the steering post angle otherwise you will never get used to the machine

 

[Lund]

Probably what your noticing is flat steering that Cat and Polaris use vs vertical steering that Doo and Yamaha use.
The vertical steering is nice if your sitting but kinda weird and sometime awkward for standing till you get use to it.
The flat steering is more natural standing but weird sitting. I prefer the flat steering of the Cat and Polaris and yet i ride a Yami.....LOL
Its all about the location of the steering column making the difference your feeling.

 

[ferniesnow]

For the third time, align the riser and the steering post. I also use a shorter riser and no stabilizer bar. I struggle with some maneuvers but that is not the fault of the sled. I have some physical impairments that prevent me from performing the Chris Brandt moves for any length of time.

I like maxwell's point about a couple of days to get comfortable of the Doo.

 

[FernieHawk]

Thanks for the input...I figured I would need more time than a quick rip but I don’t think my riding friends are that willing. They see the way I treat the old Cat

 

[bjd68]

Yes the doo is different than every other sled ! I rode ski doo for 5 years with my last one being a 2017 850 ! They handle great and is something u just have to get use too ! I know when I just purchased my 2018 mountian cat this year, I was falling over and cursing the thing for the first day but after two full days of riding I can trough it around just like I did my doo and love it now !

 

[Turts]

For the third time, align the riser and the steering post.

This^
Or it feels like pushing a shopping cart with a wonky front wheel.......

 

[FernieHawk]

This^
Or it feels like pushing a shopping cart with a wonky front wheel.......

Great description ...that’s exactly what it feels like. Wadda...wadda...wadda.

I will have to check out his steering alignment the next time I see him.

 

[drew562]

It takes 7-10 days to make your body respond naturally to a new chassis Give it time and the cats and polaris will feel weird

 

[deaner]

Im the same way with anything other than skidoo. Had a couple of M series, and jumped on a friends pro for a bit and absolutely hated them. Guessing a guy would get used to it if I spent enough time on one.

Curious to hear from someone who has spent enough time to adjust to each chassis to give their opinion. Drew....you have owned all 3 now havent you?

 

[Bnorth]

align the riser with the post as said also especially on a G4 it doesn't need much countersteer at all at speed. Coming off an M-series I expect you are over riding it a bit you basically just need to transfer weight to your inside foot to keep it on edge.

 

[oler1234]

what your are experiencing us bar slap. The riser is too far forward. and to be honest, IMO, having it inline with the steering post doesn't work well either. You want it slighty ahead. What this does is keeps the bars swinging in a 'arc' like motion as you move them. The importance of this is that it keeps your shoulders more parrell with the bar when performing a countersteer movement, what does that mean. Well now you don't need to muscle the sled around with one or the other arm you can use both, using less energy.

If the riser is way to far forward you will get bar slap at higher speeds just due to all the geometry. Also, setting the riser and bar position is the most important thing for any rider and is extremely subjective.

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

I went from an XP to a pro. It took a day to get used to the vertical steering post but I won't ever go back. The XM and now the G4 are closer to vertical. If you do buy a G4 put the forward post relocate in and it will be a better feel for you. Even Brett Rassmusen says that is a must do mod.

 

[FernieHawk]

So how do they come from the factory if most people recommend changes to align with the post. Are they to far forward from factory or is this part of the PDI setup?

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

Here is what the professionals have to say.

https://youtu.be/Hn_Q8DN6kMo

https://youtu.be/TP5sONHP8jk

In my opinion Doo is just running the over the engine steering for cost of production and making common components over multiple chassis. I flat out think it is the wrong thing to do. Poo and Cat both have over the engine steering on trail sleds. This way when you are at high speed and are using the skis to steer the direction you intend to go it allows the Rider to shift their weight to the inside of sled easier. Instead of the inside bar coming back towards you blocking your movement it moves downward allowing you to get to the inside.

In the mountains while on edge a vertical steering system allows the Rider to be on the inside of their turn and while counter steering the outside bar comes toward the Rider allowing the Rider to get further into the inside of the turn and increases their mechanical advantage. It also allows the Rider to get forward on the sled while in a counter steer. The inside bar swings over the dash opening up the inside of the sled. In over the engine steering instead of the inside bar moving forward it moves up and does not totally get out of the way.

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

So how do they come from the factory if most people recommend changes to align with the post. Are they to far forward from factory or is this part of the PDI setup?

It probably depends on who did the PDI.

 

[maxwell]

Here is what the professionals have to say.

https://youtu.be/Hn_Q8DN6kMo

https://youtu.be/TP5sONHP8jk

In my opinion Doo is just running the over the engine steering for cost of production and making common components over multiple chassis. I flat out think it is the wrong thing to do. Poo and Cat both have over the engine steering on trail sleds. This way when you are at high speed and are using the skis to steer the direction you intend to go it allows the Rider to shift their weight to the inside of sled easier. Instead of the inside bar coming back towards you blocking your movement it moves downward allowing you to get to the inside.

In the mountains while on edge a vertical steering system allows the Rider to be on the inside of their turn and while counter steering the outside bar comes toward the Rider allowing the Rider to get further into the inside of the turn and increases their mechanical advantage. It also allows the Rider to get forward on the sled while in a counter steer. The inside bar swings over the dash opening up the inside of the sled. In over the engine steering instead of the inside bar moving forward it moves up and does not totally get out of the way.

you've got that backwards. Polaris couldnt engineer a chassis that would allow the post to go over the engine. They would have to move the engine back, shrink the massive front end, tighten up their sloppy panels and move the rider forward. so instead they just added a bunch of linkages similar to how i built the gear shifter on my first go cart when i was a kid. from spare parts behind the shed. That ensures that the energy your putting into the handlebars is completely lost in steering components step downs/crossovers and tie rod ends before it reaches the skis.

lets face it there is not one other offroad vehicle on the face of the planet that has steering like a polaris/cat. quads/dirtbikes/pwc/mountain bikes....anything with handlebars steers like a skidoo. There are far more advantages to having it this way. First being the post is straight and mounted firmly in 2 places only. Having the riser inline with the Post allows direct leverage on the entire chassis and all the energy you put into it is transfered straight to the chassis and skis. Less fatigue Second is in off camber situations. when you counter steer off camber the bars dip and it allows you to get your entire body over the bars and up close to the chassis. There is no better mechanical advantage than that. On the Polaris the bars are in your guts, you cant reach the downhill bar and your essentially chit out of luck. but theres hope. you can mount the bars SOO low that this efffect is minimized. You should ask the pros like brett turcotte what he thinks of that type of steering and why his arctic cats steered like a skidoo LOL

 

[cdnredneck_t3]

you've got that backwards. Polaris couldnt engineer a chassis that would allow the post to go over the engine. They would have to move the engine back, shrink the massive front end, tighten up their sloppy panels and move the rider forward. so instead they just added a bunch of linkages similar to how i built the gear shifter on my first go cart when i was a kid. from spare parts behind the shed. That ensures that the energy your putting into the handlebars is completely lost in steering components step downs/crossovers and tie rod ends before it reaches the skis.

lets face it there is not one other offroad vehicle on the face of the planet that has steering like a polaris/cat. quads/dirtbikes/pwc/mountain bikes....anything with handlebars steers like a skidoo. There are far more advantages to having it this way. First being the post is straight and mounted firmly in 2 places only. Having the riser inline with the Post allows direct leverage on the entire chassis and all the energy you put into it is transfered straight to the chassis and skis. Less fatigue Second is in off camber situations. when you counter steer off camber the bars dip and it allows you to get your entire body over the bars and up close to the chassis. There is no better mechanical advantage than that. On the Polaris the bars are in your guts, you cant reach the downhill bar and your essentially chit out of luck. but theres hope. you can mount the bars SOO low that this efffect is minimized. You should ask the pros like brett turcotte what he thinks of that type of steering and why his arctic cats steered like a skidoo LOL

You mean like this. Oh and that is a trail sled by the way.


Your own Doo Ambassador and the man who pioneered the modern mountain riding style says you need as close to a vertical steering post as possible. You expect me to believe you over him? Give your head a shake.

And you said it yourself about why the vertical steering isn't found in any other motor vehicle. Because none of those other vehicles are ridden with the riders body entirely of the one side of the machine. In a neutral position the bar does come towards you a bit. But that is more than made up for when in a wrong foot forward position when you need every advantage you can get.

I'll say the G4 is as close to a mountain machine as Doo has ever built. The steering is much more vertical and they finally kept the steering linkage from the post inside the machine. But their steering is still not proper.

You would make a good Socialist Maxwell. Just blindly follow what your precious leader (Doo in this case) says. Even Rassmusen starts off by saying you need to move the post forward.