BCSF provincial membership "draft proposal".

[Depsnolvr]

One thing that keeps getting confused in this scenario is MEMBERSHIP vs SEASONS PASS

I truly wish these were kept more separate.

BCSF needs rider MEMBERS...not season pass holders.

Members provide revenue to the BCSF but equally important are the statistics. BCSF would have much more power if it was able to walk into a provincial or federal meeting and state that they represented 75% of the riding community in BC.....this is no where near the case.

It needs to be clarified that currently to become a member of the BCSF, you need to purchase a membership through a BCSF member CLUB. One cannot buy just a membership to the BCSF. I am not sure the advantage of this, but it has to do with the admin on the BCSF side. I often wonder why it was made this way...as I believe this option would allow for easier sales but I am sure they have very good reasons.

If our out of province riders (who ride all over BC) wanted to contribute to the betterment of snowmobiling in BC (without having to choose an individual club) it would be very beneficial for them to be able to purchase a membership to the BCSF only. This helps with the issues BCSF continues to deal with (on our behalf) and will continue to face in the future...environmental, wildlife, industry etc etc.

Seasons passes should and in my opinion NEED to be kept separate from memberships. Membership are to support the club and or sport overall, NOT to get a discount or cheaper riding. Season Passes are available to the people who are lucky enough to ride a lot and may focus more one geographic location and hence have a reason to purchase a pass in a certain location.

Do we have a Provincial Pass to all of the ski hills in BC? If I buy a seasons pass at skill hill A, I cant go to ski hill B and ride for free. But I will buy my seasons pass at Ski Hill A, because I ride there 90% of the time and if I am lucky enough to make a couple road trips in the winter, I will smile and pay my daily lift ticket....its the cost of having fun and being lucky enough to have options and the freedom to choose where I recreate.

Ride safe

 

[skegpro]

One thing that keeps getting confused in this scenario is MEMBERSHIP vs SEASONS PASS

I truly wish these were kept more separate.

BCSF needs rider MEMBERS...not season pass holders.

Members provide revenue to the BCSF but equally important are the statistics. BCSF would have much more power if it was able to walk into a provincial or federal meeting and state that they represented 75% of the riding community in BC.....this is no where near the case.

It needs to be clarified that currently to become a member of the BCSF, you need to purchase a membership through a BCSF member CLUB. One cannot buy just a membership to the BCSF. I am not sure the advantage of this, but it has to do with the admin on the BCSF side. I often wonder why it was made this way...as I believe this option would allow for easier sales but I am sure they have very good reasons.

If our out of province riders (who ride all over BC) wanted to contribute to the betterment of snowmobiling in BC (without having to choose an individual club) it would be very beneficial for them to be able to purchase a membership to the BCSF only. This helps with the issues BCSF continues to deal with (on our behalf) and will continue to face in the future...environmental, wildlife, industry etc etc.

Seasons passes should and in my opinion NEED to be kept separate from memberships. Membership are to support the club and or sport overall, NOT to get a discount or cheaper riding. Season Passes are available to the people who are lucky enough to ride a lot and may focus more one geographic location and hence have a reason to purchase a pass in a certain location.

Do we have a Provincial Pass to all of the ski hills in BC? If I buy a seasons pass at skill hill A, I cant go to ski hill B and ride for free. But I will buy my seasons pass at Ski Hill A, because I ride there 90% of the time and if I am lucky enough to make a couple road trips in the winter, I will smile and pay my daily lift ticket....its the cost of having fun and being lucky enough to have options and the freedom to choose where I recreate.

Ride safe

100% Curtis

One thing to add in my mind is as a prerequisite to buy a trail pass (day pass) one should have to be a BCSF $27.50 member.

We need to funnel people towards becoming members and making the right choice.

I think we have a better chance of people buying the $27.50 BCSF membership, if it existed.

Vs trying to convince them to buy a season pass or a provincial.

Strength in numbers.

 

[rightsideup]

One thing that keeps getting confused in this scenario is MEMBERSHIP vs SEASONS PASS

I truly wish these were kept more separate.

BCSF needs rider MEMBERS...not season pass holders.

Members provide revenue to the BCSF but equally important are the statistics. BCSF would have much more power if it was able to walk into a provincial or federal meeting and state that they represented 75% of the riding community in BC.....this is no where near the case.

It needs to be clarified that currently to become a member of the BCSF, you need to purchase a membership through a BCSF member CLUB. One cannot buy just a membership to the BCSF. I am not sure the advantage of this, but it has to do with the admin on the BCSF side. I often wonder why it was made this way...as I believe this option would allow for easier sales but I am sure they have very good reasons.

If our out of province riders (who ride all over BC) wanted to contribute to the betterment of snowmobiling in BC (without having to choose an individual club) it would be very beneficial for them to be able to purchase a membership to the BCSF only. This helps with the issues BCSF continues to deal with (on our behalf) and will continue to face in the future...environmental, wildlife, industry etc etc.

Seasons passes should and in my opinion NEED to be kept separate from memberships. Membership are to support the club and or sport overall, NOT to get a discount or cheaper riding. Season Passes are available to the people who are lucky enough to ride a lot and may focus more one geographic location and hence have a reason to purchase a pass in a certain location.

Do we have a Provincial Pass to all of the ski hills in BC? If I buy a seasons pass at skill hill A, I cant go to ski hill B and ride for free. But I will buy my seasons pass at Ski Hill A, because I ride there 90% of the time and if I am lucky enough to make a couple road trips in the winter, I will smile and pay my daily lift ticket....its the cost of having fun and being lucky enough to have options and the freedom to choose where I recreate.

Ride safe

I agree with you. I am told the clubs want a provincial entity to support the sport of snowmobiles to do that is a question of having enough revenue to do so and the ability to show to political interests that snowmobiler's are responsible persons. A increase in both area's will HELP.I totally agree with Curtis and skegpro that there is also a strength in numbers so more creative increase in a membership is required. The BCSF presented a plan to be critiqued. I have heard people say we are not like ontario or the maritime province that was used for a template. The general issues are the same land,wildlife and safety. To mitigate these issues you need resources on a provincial level. Just some creativity on funding those resources and a agreement on what is required to deal with issues is needed.

 

[Mach1]

Well I will be buying my membership from fernie as I am in Kimberley and prob will be going there the most, as long as I get a day of guiding from ferniesnow, lol
But really I want to buy one, so who and where. Thx to all the work.

 

[moyiesledhead]

Well I will be buying my membership from fernie as I am in Kimberley and prob will be going there the most, as long as I get a day of guiding from ferniesnow, lol
But really I want to buy one, so who and where. Thx to all the work.

You can buy it right here: https://fsa-bcsf.silkstart.com/join

 

[skegpro]

Any new developments?
TTT

 

[moyiesledhead]

Any new developments?
TTT

I think they're on revision 5 or 6 now.

 

[skegpro]

I think they're on revision 5 or 6 now.

So the provincial pass is gonna be a go this year?

 

[moyiesledhead]

So the provincial pass is gonna be a go this year?

I'd be very surprised if it ever happens.

 

[catinthehat]

So the provincial pass is gonna be a go this year?

So far the intention appears to be gathering as much input as possible this winter to have a viable plan for discussion/voting at the spring meeting of the BCSF.
We won't ( if ever ) see anything formal before then.

 

[Donegal-BCSF]

I obviously do not get on here often enough. Last time I checked back nothing...a few weeks on the road and bam so far behind I will have to write a book I love the discussion going on and believe that it is all relevant. More clarifications from me...

Membership vs Seasons Pass...For most clubs in the Province (all but Valemount I think) the seasons pass is the benefit of membership. The clubs do not separate their trail pass from their membership and therefore many will not even understand the comment left by Curtis. Perhaps he could lay out his structure to make it clearer for everyone how he sells his seasons passes?

Day passes-BCSF does not receive any money for day pass sales. We have one club in the Province that still has a grooming society and they are assessed their insurance based on the volume of people they put through the gates to a maximum of 4,000.00 each year. For the rest Government dictates that every dollar collected at the trail must go back into that trail and none to the BCSF. Currently clubs are struggling to make ends meet and therefore currently the BCSF will not be lobbying for a portion of this fee as it is needed at the ground. Government sets the fee and ensures in my opinion that clubs continue to struggling

BCSF Direct - The BCSF has not offered the ability for a person to join directly into the BCSF for a couple of reasons...the first being that reality is that a person cannot be a member of the BCSF. We have 70 members which are our clubs that have the ability to vote. Our current structure does not allow for individual memberships or for a member of a club to show up at a BCSF meeting and vote. Only clubs have votes as we are a Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. For years it has been referred to as a membership in the BCSF but reality is that the 26.25 submitted to the BCSF is the dues structure created by the clubs to fund the BCSF. It was seen as a fair way to fund the BCSF and has continued for as far back as I can find. It is not a membership fee. Secondly we are not on the ground making trails. Therefore, we do not want people to have the ability to go around the clubs and support the BCSF. Yes, the additional funding would be good but it would be short lived as the clubs will start to fold with money diverted from them. The strength of our sport...rests on the strength of our clubs.

From our 70 member clubs we can show that we represent through them a further 7,000 snowmobilers in the Province of BC. That is not enough funding or numbers to have a loud voice that is going to facilitate change. At the ground level we are being regulated out of the backcountry. Our clubs are being regulated through work safe, local land planning, lack of funding, volunteer burnout, wildlife, environment and increased commercial recreation. The landscape is changing but the sledders are not. Many think that it is their right to ride on crown land for free. That they do not need to join a snowmobile club in order to recreate in the backcountry. You are right...you can access the backcountry any number of ways without paying. But one day you will get there only to see a closed sign and a helicopter waiting to give you a ticket. I hate scare tactics but it is very frustrating at this level to fight on so many fronts...see the writing on the wall...and not be able to make widespread changes in thinking for our snowmobile community. If you are not happy with the operation of your local snowmobile club than come out to meetings and facilitate change. Not by criticizing the work that has been done but stepping up to do the work that will need to be done. Don't just slander them on Facebook and tell everyone a new spot to unload forty feet past the gate to avoid the trail fee. Learn how much your club collects, what their expenses are, and how many hours are done by volunteers. Understand what meetings they are attending or in some cases not attending.

Out East- I have been a sledder for many years and have worked with the BCSF for the past four seasons. I know that we are not like out East. You don't need to have trails that connect for them to be important and require funding. So while we would love to have interconnect trail systems all over the Province. The reality is that our geography will not allow that to happen in most cases. But the trails we do have are even more important as you cannot access the alpine or most areas without going up some sort of trail. These trails need proper funding and infrastructure to remain viable. The BCSF needs numbers and funding to keep lobbying. If you think lobbying the government is hard? what will be even harder is the private land issue. Private Interest Groups ( yep I made an acronym of even this PIG's) are buying up vast tracts of lands for the sole purpose of them remaining undisturbed. There is no one we can lobby to keep these areas open. They will be just gone. If you don't believe me go take a look at the map on this website...slide it over to see how much land they have bought or converted to parkland in the last 30 years https://y2y.net/vision/our-progress/our-progress These are organized people that are investing their funding not in lobby efforts but buying up land.

For Moyie that feels that his club would have to be independent to continue...this makes me sad. It is not the intent of anything we are drafting to squeeze or penalize any portion of our membership. Of the 70 member clubs in the Province many are small clubs. That is why the plan is in draft form and looking for feedback. If the smaller clubs feel that the fee structure in the draft plan is not correct than they need to make themselves heard. Not just plan to leave without providing input or changes they would like to see. Also, this feedback should be sent to the BCSF by email because as you can see I do not have time to go on snowandmud often and this is the only thread I am currently following.

Past Plan- For those referencing a past plan...I would love to see it. Nowhere in any of the electronic files I have is an old plan referenced or was found. It would have been easier to copy it for sure but you can safely say that this plan is not regurgitated from that one as I don't have it. my email is office@bcsf.org

Finally, if you want to poke holes and give direction on the way forward for this plan than please ask your local club president for a copy of the plan. That way you can poke holes in what is being proposed not just what you think is being proposed

Keep the feedback coming and as there are lots of comments on here if there is a question that you think I have not answered please let me know.

Also, this is me responding and my responses not been vetted through the BCSF board of directors. Therefore, please consider some of these comments regarding frustration and especially the acronyms to be mine alone

 

[skegpro]

I obviously do not get on here often enough. Last time I checked back nothing...a few weeks on the road and bam so far behind I will have to write a book I love the discussion going on and believe that it is all relevant. More clarifications from me...

Membership vs Seasons Pass...For most clubs in the Province (all but Valemount I think) the seasons pass is the benefit of membership. The clubs do not separate their trail pass from their membership and therefore many will not even understand the comment left by Curtis. Perhaps he could lay out his structure to make it clearer for everyone how he sells his seasons passes?

Day passes-BCSF does not receive any money for day pass sales. We have one club in the Province that still has a grooming society and they are assessed their insurance based on the volume of people they put through the gates to a maximum of 4,000.00 each year. For the rest Government dictates that every dollar collected at the trail must go back into that trail and none to the BCSF. Currently clubs are struggling to make ends meet and therefore currently the BCSF will not be lobbying for a portion of this fee as it is needed at the ground. Government sets the fee and ensures in my opinion that clubs continue to struggling

BCSF Direct - The BCSF has not offered the ability for a person to join directly into the BCSF for a couple of reasons...the first being that reality is that a person cannot be a member of the BCSF. We have 70 members which are our clubs that have the ability to vote. Our current structure does not allow for individual memberships or for a member of a club to show up at a BCSF meeting and vote. Only clubs have votes as we are a Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. For years it has been referred to as a membership in the BCSF but reality is that the 26.25 submitted to the BCSF is the dues structure created by the clubs to fund the BCSF. It was seen as a fair way to fund the BCSF and has continued for as far back as I can find. It is not a membership fee. Secondly we are not on the ground making trails. Therefore, we do not want people to have the ability to go around the clubs and support the BCSF. Yes, the additional funding would be good but it would be short lived as the clubs will start to fold with money diverted from them. The strength of our sport...rests on the strength of our clubs.

From our 70 member clubs we can show that we represent through them a further 7,000 snowmobilers in the Province of BC. That is not enough funding or numbers to have a loud voice that is going to facilitate change. At the ground level we are being regulated out of the backcountry. Our clubs are being regulated through work safe, local land planning, lack of funding, volunteer burnout, wildlife, environment and increased commercial recreation. The landscape is changing but the sledders are not. Many think that it is their right to ride on crown land for free. That they do not need to join a snowmobile club in order to recreate in the backcountry. You are right...you can access the backcountry any number of ways without paying. But one day you will get there only to see a closed sign and a helicopter waiting to give you a ticket. I hate scare tactics but it is very frustrating at this level to fight on so many fronts...see the writing on the wall...and not be able to make widespread changes in thinking for our snowmobile community. If you are not happy with the operation of your local snowmobile club than come out to meetings and facilitate change. Not by criticizing the work that has been done but stepping up to do the work that will need to be done. Don't just slander them on Facebook and tell everyone a new spot to unload forty feet past the gate to avoid the trail fee. Learn how much your club collects, what their expenses are, and how many hours are done by volunteers. Understand what meetings they are attending or in some cases not attending.

Out East- I have been a sledder for many years and have worked with the BCSF for the past four seasons. I know that we are not like out East. You don't need to have trails that connect for them to be important and require funding. So while we would love to have interconnect trail systems all over the Province. The reality is that our geography will not allow that to happen in most cases. But the trails we do have are even more important as you cannot access the alpine or most areas without going up some sort of trail. These trails need proper funding and infrastructure to remain viable. The BCSF needs numbers and funding to keep lobbying. If you think lobbying the government is hard? what will be even harder is the private land issue. Private Interest Groups ( yep I made an acronym of even this PIG's) are buying up vast tracts of lands for the sole purpose of them remaining undisturbed. There is no one we can lobby to keep these areas open. They will be just gone. If you don't believe me go take a look at the map on this website...slide it over to see how much land they have bought or converted to parkland in the last 30 years https://y2y.net/vision/our-progress/our-progress These are organized people that are investing their funding not in lobby efforts but buying up land.

For Moyie that feels that his club would have to be independent to continue...this makes me sad. It is not the intent of anything we are drafting to squeeze or penalize any portion of our membership. Of the 70 member clubs in the Province many are small clubs. That is why the plan is in draft form and looking for feedback. If the smaller clubs feel that the fee structure in the draft plan is not correct than they need to make themselves heard. Not just plan to leave without providing input or changes they would like to see. Also, this feedback should be sent to the BCSF by email because as you can see I do not have time to go on snowandmud often and this is the only thread I am currently following.

Past Plan- For those referencing a past plan...I would love to see it. Nowhere in any of the electronic files I have is an old plan referenced or was found. It would have been easier to copy it for sure but you can safely say that this plan is not regurgitated from that one as I don't have it. my email is office@bcsf.org

Finally, if you want to poke holes and give direction on the way forward for this plan than please ask your local club president for a copy of the plan. That way you can poke holes in what is being proposed not just what you think is being proposed

Keep the feedback coming and as there are lots of comments on here if there is a question that you think I have not answered please let me know.

Also, this is me responding and my responses not been vetted through the BCSF board of directors. Therefore, please consider some of these comments regarding frustration and especially the acronyms to be mine alone

Wow what a Novel.
Well said.

Great work and thank-you for your time and dedication.

I think the biggest obstacle in my mind is turning the people who will never buy a season pass into a usable number.
And is there an action plan to make the trail pass purchaser a usable number?

I like what Curtis is doing with the $30 BCSF membership, and I think more people would buy it if they understood it was going towards protecting the intrests of the sport.

Plus some clubs like Revelstoke give $5 off a trail pass for having a BCSF membership, make back your $30 in no time lol.

Can Sledders buy land?
I would be interested in purchasing some Alpine, how does one go about that?
Might even let some of you use it

 

[pete gads]

Just make it a law to ride in bc must have a season pass 100.00 or get fined 150.00 You can afford a 12000.00 sled and a 500.00 weekend ride then 100.00 isn't much. I live in alberta and have a pass to BCSF and to valemount club.

 

[moyiesledhead]

Just make it a law to ride in bc must have a season pass 100.00 or get fined 150.00 You can afford a 12000.00 sled and a 500.00 weekend ride then 100.00 isn't much. I live in alberta and have a pass to BCSF and to valemount club.

Nice for you.

I can't afford a $12000 sled and a $500 weekend. Neither can most of the people I ride with. And the proposal for a seasons pass is more than $100. That little money provincially wouldn't go very far.

 

[tex78]

Re: BCSF provincial membership "draft proposal".

Just make it a law to ride in bc must have a season pass 100.00 or get fined 150.00 You can afford a 12000.00 sled and a 500.00 weekend ride then 100.00 isn't much. I live in alberta and have a pass to BCSF and to valemount club.

Well just think, you won't be able to afford that after the carbon tax comes in



Oh wait your idea is one more expense rammed down our throats, that isn't needed like that and should be delt with everyones interests involved

sent while drinking tea's

 

[skegpro]

Re: BCSF provincial membership "draft proposal".

Well just think, you won't be able to afford that after the carbon tax comes in



Oh wait your idea is one more expense rammed down our throats, that isn't needed like that and should be delt with everyones interests involved

sent while drinking tea's

NDP Voters.....

 

[tex78]

Re: BCSF provincial membership "draft proposal".

NDP Voters.....

Must be f.f.s

sent while drinking tea's

 

[Lund]

I obviously do not get on here often enough. Last time I checked back nothing...a few weeks on the road and bam so far behind I will have to write a book I love the discussion going on and believe that it is all relevant. More clarifications from me...

Membership vs Seasons Pass...For most clubs in the Province (all but Valemount I think) the seasons pass is the benefit of membership. The clubs do not separate their trail pass from their membership and therefore many will not even understand the comment left by Curtis. Perhaps he could lay out his structure to make it clearer for everyone how he sells his seasons passes?

Day passes-BCSF does not receive any money for day pass sales. We have one club in the Province that still has a grooming society and they are assessed their insurance based on the volume of people they put through the gates to a maximum of 4,000.00 each year. For the rest Government dictates that every dollar collected at the trail must go back into that trail and none to the BCSF. Currently clubs are struggling to make ends meet and therefore currently the BCSF will not be lobbying for a portion of this fee as it is needed at the ground. Government sets the fee and ensures in my opinion that clubs continue to struggling

BCSF Direct - The BCSF has not offered the ability for a person to join directly into the BCSF for a couple of reasons...the first being that reality is that a person cannot be a member of the BCSF. We have 70 members which are our clubs that have the ability to vote. Our current structure does not allow for individual memberships or for a member of a club to show up at a BCSF meeting and vote. Only clubs have votes as we are a Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. For years it has been referred to as a membership in the BCSF but reality is that the 26.25 submitted to the BCSF is the dues structure created by the clubs to fund the BCSF. It was seen as a fair way to fund the BCSF and has continued for as far back as I can find. It is not a membership fee. Secondly we are not on the ground making trails. Therefore, we do not want people to have the ability to go around the clubs and support the BCSF. Yes, the additional funding would be good but it would be short lived as the clubs will start to fold with money diverted from them. The strength of our sport...rests on the strength of our clubs.

From our 70 member clubs we can show that we represent through them a further 7,000 snowmobilers in the Province of BC. That is not enough funding or numbers to have a loud voice that is going to facilitate change. At the ground level we are being regulated out of the backcountry. Our clubs are being regulated through work safe, local land planning, lack of funding, volunteer burnout, wildlife, environment and increased commercial recreation. The landscape is changing but the sledders are not. Many think that it is their right to ride on crown land for free. That they do not need to join a snowmobile club in order to recreate in the backcountry. You are right...you can access the backcountry any number of ways without paying. But one day you will get there only to see a closed sign and a helicopter waiting to give you a ticket. I hate scare tactics but it is very frustrating at this level to fight on so many fronts...see the writing on the wall...and not be able to make widespread changes in thinking for our snowmobile community. If you are not happy with the operation of your local snowmobile club than come out to meetings and facilitate change. Not by criticizing the work that has been done but stepping up to do the work that will need to be done. Don't just slander them on Facebook and tell everyone a new spot to unload forty feet past the gate to avoid the trail fee. Learn how much your club collects, what their expenses are, and how many hours are done by volunteers. Understand what meetings they are attending or in some cases not attending.

Out East- I have been a sledder for many years and have worked with the BCSF for the past four seasons. I know that we are not like out East. You don't need to have trails that connect for them to be important and require funding. So while we would love to have interconnect trail systems all over the Province. The reality is that our geography will not allow that to happen in most cases. But the trails we do have are even more important as you cannot access the alpine or most areas without going up some sort of trail. These trails need proper funding and infrastructure to remain viable. The BCSF needs numbers and funding to keep lobbying. If you think lobbying the government is hard? what will be even harder is the private land issue. Private Interest Groups ( yep I made an acronym of even this PIG's) are buying up vast tracts of lands for the sole purpose of them remaining undisturbed. There is no one we can lobby to keep these areas open. They will be just gone. If you don't believe me go take a look at the map on this website...slide it over to see how much land they have bought or converted to parkland in the last 30 years https://y2y.net/vision/our-progress/our-progress These are organized people that are investing their funding not in lobby efforts but buying up land.

For Moyie that feels that his club would have to be independent to continue...this makes me sad. It is not the intent of anything we are drafting to squeeze or penalize any portion of our membership. Of the 70 member clubs in the Province many are small clubs. That is why the plan is in draft form and looking for feedback. If the smaller clubs feel that the fee structure in the draft plan is not correct than they need to make themselves heard. Not just plan to leave without providing input or changes they would like to see. Also, this feedback should be sent to the BCSF by email because as you can see I do not have time to go on snowandmud often and this is the only thread I am currently following.

Past Plan- For those referencing a past plan...I would love to see it. Nowhere in any of the electronic files I have is an old plan referenced or was found. It would have been easier to copy it for sure but you can safely say that this plan is not regurgitated from that one as I don't have it. my email is office@bcsf.org

Finally, if you want to poke holes and give direction on the way forward for this plan than please ask your local club president for a copy of the plan. That way you can poke holes in what is being proposed not just what you think is being proposed

Keep the feedback coming and as there are lots of comments on here if there is a question that you think I have not answered please let me know.

Also, this is me responding and my responses not been vetted through the BCSF board of directors. Therefore, please consider some of these comments regarding frustration and especially the acronyms to be mine alone

I just finished reading this and going to try to contact the people involve at the time. I made a copy of this post and will send it to them. I was told its there but i have not seen it either, i even asked for a copy a while back?????

 

[skegpro]

http://snoriderswest.com/article/cl...plan_is_the_hottest_topic_in_the_b.c._sled_sc

 

[moyiesledhead]

http://snoriderswest.com/article/cl...plan_is_the_hottest_topic_in_the_b.c._sled_sc

With all due respect to Trish, she completely missed the actual concerns of smaller clubs as stated by me previously in this thread. A little disappointing, but our club's out of the BCSF now so I won't dwell on it.