Avalanche Education - your thoughts

[~Rowdy~]

Recently, I was on the chair lift in Fernie downhill biking talking to a guy about snowmobiling and avalanche safety. I asked him if he had his AST1 course. He proceeded to tell me that he had friends take the course and not learn anything, and that he had only been in 2 avalanches himself. While explaining the scenarios on the avalanches he had been in, he kept saying, "I was in the safe zone".

Figured this could prompt an interesting discussion. What do you think about what he said? Do you think all sledders should have an AST1? What about an AST2?

 

[maxwell]

He's partially correct. In my honest opinion an ast1 course is not enough to fully make educated decisions to navigate the backcountry. And unless he had his ast2 then his "i was in a safe zone" comment could be legitimate. To say you don't learn anything in an ast1 course is just a downright lie. I fully beleive an ast1 course should be a mandatory item to access the backcountry. If we keep killing ourselves it will be for sure. Is an ast2 enough? Nope. No amount of training can give you 100% confidence in what you are doing. The future looks good as new technology hits the shelves every tool helps your survival ratio. I think the best possible scenario is to have all the training and tools and match that with plain old experience and knowledge/history of the area. I hate to say it but what woke me up and changed my riding style 180 degrees is one very close call and numerous close proximity avalanches that I either witnessed or saw the aftermath. When you see avalanches in terrain you ride it gives you an excellent sense of what's happening or what can happen. Regardless of what the bulletin says if I have seen history in a zone before I will stay clear of it anyways. It sure limits your terrain and personal growth but it sure beats being dead.


Bottom line is ast 1 gives you the tools you need to assess or recover from a situation and from my experience in conversation or from what I've witnessed this is just down right missing in a lot of riding groups. Do you want to ride with someone who is not trained? I don't? They are a liability not an asset depending on the terrain your riding. But picture things going totally south with your riding group are you comfortable everyone would know what to do? This is where ast1 comes in. I bet my group could spring into action in a bad situation with little time lost simply because we trained together.

You need a certificate to fart on a construction site so why not to access the backcountry

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rbrduk]

IMPO I think everyone should have AST2. What I found after doing level 2 was that level 1 gives you just enough info to be dangerous. I'm not saying level 1 isn't good to have, it's a start. With that being said, will i ride with someone that isn't trained? Yes I will, but the terrain choices will be vastly different.

Now back to this guy on the chairlift, he needs to give his head a shake and get educated or let natural selection take it's course.

 

[catinthehat]

Having an AST1 would make no difference to some people.
An interesting question to ask would be; How many people that have been caught in an avalanche have had training and yet still put themselves and others into unsafe , risky situations?
Training is only valuable if you use it properly, recognize the hazard and avoid it is still the most important lesson I took home

 

[lilduke]

I think Back Country sledders should be trained in Avalanche Safety for sure, More training the better. But there is really no way of making people get trained before heading out. So as a sledder I think its important to choose who you ride with carefully. Ask yourself; what are the chances im going to be digging this person out of an Avy? Will this person know what to do if someone is barried? Is this person going to get me killed? I have rode with some people that make poor choices and it takes the fun out of sledding.

 

[DRD]

AST doesn't make you smart. I've ridden with a bunch of people who haven't taken the course who are very safe in the backcountry and make conservative decisions. A two day course doesn't make you an expert. There have been plenty of people who are experts get killed so a couple day course is just scratching the surface.

 

[Clode]

the nearest avy course for me is a 7hr drive, I am going to try to make it to one this winter, so my group is always cautious

 

[gdhillon]

Avalanche vids have put the scare in me, I;m going to avoid mountains until I get an avy course. I watched one vid on youtube the other day where the guy was coming off a small hill maybe 10 ft? and 'fell' into a snowtrap/creek. He was completely buried, good thing one of his buddies was right behind him


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHbSMr8vhU
Theres lots on youtube but this one is particularly eye opening for me

 

[~Rowdy~]

Thanks for the responses. I figured with everyone's throttle thumbs itching this had the potential for some good discussion.

 

[gdhillon]

I have hangfires website setup on my home page right now...patiently waiting for the dates to come up in PG haha

Clode, I don't know what part of fsj your in but it takes me ~4.5 hours in winter to get there from PG (using the braden road)

 

[Clode]

I have hangfires website setup on my home page right now...patiently waiting for the dates to come up in PG haha

Clode, I don't know what part of fsj your in but it takes me ~4.5 hours in winter to get there from PG (using the braden road)

I am waiting also for PG dates, otherwise its edmonton or valemont....

 

[Mike270412]

Our group is gonna hire Frozen Pirate Snow Services and make a weekend out of it in Valemount.

 

[Depsnolvr]

There was an interesting discussion on this on Facebook as well.

There is a lot of merit behind the AST1 and it is super important, but remember, that class can be interpreted and taught in many different ways. Best option is to get an instructor that is experienced and professional that can relate to your sport. By sledders for sledders. There is a growing number of experienced instructors out there now that began as sledders and some are offering a variety of AST courses to fit different schedules and desires.

Time and mentorship in the field are key. Understanding snowpacks and weather are great, but the one major thing we have control over is our TERRAIN CHOICES and where and how we choose to expose ourselves and our group. A lot of this comes down to the mental aspect of our sport and where we choose to ride and the reasons for making those decisions.......deep eh? But super important.

If you are up in my neck of the woods, please look me up. Our website should be up in a couple of days where we will be releasing some early bird pricing and I will post the link up here when it is completed. I have attached the back of my rack card as a pdf below. Note the different styles of AST sessions and mentorship that will be offered.

 

[Luke The Drifter]

I think a lot of guys get their AST1 and never use it in the field. You can have all the training, knowledge and tools in the world but if you neglect to practice with it and apply it to your riding, its a waste IMO. I know I'll be looking for some refresher courses/seminars to get my mind back in the groove and with more field experience I want to do my AST2 as well (Curtis??). Plus I have a newbie rider with me this year and I'll be bringing him along with me and encouraging him to get his AST1 asap. Discussions like this are good, it gets us all thinking and moving towards being better as a whole group.

 

[gdhillon]

I am waiting also for PG dates, otherwise its edmonton or valemont....

Oh okay, last year hangfire didnt have theres till feb 8th

I might be going to valemount depending on when Curtis has his courses

 

[Clode]

Oh okay, last year hangfire didnt have theres till feb 8th

I might be going to valemount depending on when Curtis has his courses

when you get dates for PG, let me know, I will check and see if I am working or not

 

[gdhillon]

when you get dates for PG, let me know, I will check and see if I am working or not

Okay I will

 

[fnDan]

Avalanche courses should be like First Aid courses, you need to take a refresher once a year or so. I'm a First Aider at work and I rely on those refresher courses so that I know what I need to do to help someone.
I took my AST1 in 2008. Since that time, I have yet to dig a pit to look at the layers. That was going to be on my to-do list.
I make better decisions because of the course but I have also changed the type of terrain I ride in the last few years. So have most of my riding buddies. I'd like to take a field refresher course this year. I pull out the avy books I bought and read them, and I practice beacon searches when there's enough snow around the house.
If most of the group takes the course and has the information, I think it's easier to voice an opinion and get guys talking about it.

 

[bhowes]

Well I will put my 2 cents in took my what at the time was what you call ast 1 from zacs about 15 or so years ago I will say that I have never felt the need for ast 2 and have been riding the big hills since 95 or so brp has stepped up in the last 3 or 4 yrs and offered free to us all awareness sessions that have been good and successfull ( they are not a replacement for the course but are a good tune up for the season) and any tool for the box is a good thing
know your group and have trust in the skill set of your group as a whole you are only as good as the weakest link some times we get caught up in the excitement of the ride or the need to help a buddy out ( thanks for smart the f@&$k up slap last yr in trout rowdy because we were helping some one out in a terrain trap and sometimes fresh eyes to situations are priceless ) so take the time and investment to get some training keep it fresh and keep the skills sharp

again I trust the people in our group old and young 150 % and would not ride with them if i didn't so it's any easy choice not to go with someone who is not

have fun this season and be carefull

 

[~Rowdy~]

Well I will put my 2 cents in took my what at the time was what you call ast 1 from zacs about 15 or so years ago I will say that I have never felt the need for ast 2 and have been riding the big hills since 95 or so brp has stepped up in the last 3 or 4 yrs and offered free to us all awareness sessions that have been good and successfull ( they are not a replacement for the course but are a good tune up for the season) and any tool for the box is a good thing
know your group and have trust in the skill set of your group as a whole you are only as good as the weakest link some times we get caught up in the excitement of the ride or the need to help a buddy out ( thanks for smart the f@&$k up slap last yr in trout rowdy because we were helping some one out in a terrain trap and sometimes fresh eyes to situations are priceless ) so take the time and investment to get some training keep it fresh and keep the skills sharp

again I trust the people in our group old and young 150 % and would not ride with them if i didn't so it's any easy choice not to go with someone who is not

have fun this season and be carefull

I know I have a different opinion than you on the training aspect, but I do know how you and the other guys ride and would never feel unsafe with you.

You are welcome for the slap. For anyone curious as to what he is referring to, we had a group up in Trout sledding. The visibility was on and off, mostly off. We were heading towards a small bowl that was open on the one side to steeper terrain. One guy was side hilling on a slope doing donuts when we thought his belt blew. He glided down to the bottom flat area, when the vis came back a bit there was a cornice overhang above where he was doing donuts that if it let go would have potentially brought down the hill and right to where he was.

Long story short I noticed the potential danger, alerted the group and advised only people needing to be there should be there to help the one guy as it turned out to be his clutch. I then posted myself in the trees to the riders right with a good view of the guys in the "danger zone" and the cornice with my gear ready to go. The group was very receptive to everything I said. Avy conditions were Moderate and the hill or cornice wasn't huge, but as a precaution I felt that this was the best scenario as we had the majority of the group out of the "danger zone" and ready to assist should anything happen.

Can't wait to sled with you guys again this year. You should come to the beacon search too Blair! Nov 8th!