Avalanche Centre in Distress

[Modman]

....I guess two deaths out of the number that were caught in the Turbo slide is a small fraction but it does speak to the fact that apparently there will be more sledding fatalities until the sledders learn how to use all the information taught in the avy courses and start making informed and safe decisions.

We heard you the first time....

Thanks for posting the same thing twice - not really sure how it relates to sledders helping out with funding the CAC, which is the 5,000 ft view of what the discussion is about. Let's debate the biased factual merits of this article about what sledders apparently do (or do not do) when reading the bulletins (and whether it was actually written by someone who has ever even ridden a sled), on another thread. Thanks.





Back to the topic at hand - again, not sure where this writer gets their stats but I know that I have donated over $150 personally this year to the CAC alone, through Zacs and also through private membership. If possible, I would like to see the CAC include a "backcountry user category" checkbox on the form. I know quite a few other sledders that have as well. I have no problem donating $100-$200 (or more) annually to the CAC, hell - one jug of race fuel costs me that much......I agree, its something that the clubs could tack on the membership fee and on the trail pass and I will gladly pay it. I check the bulletins each time before heading out and we alter riding areas and styles based on the bulletin's information. I would hate to lose this information.

Everyone please do what you can to support this organization. The knowledge they provide is as vital to your life in the backcountry as your beacon, probe and shovel. You cannot put a price on the vital role they play to all backcountry users, not just sledders.

 

[AvyDaze]

Hi folks,

John Kelly from the Avalanche Centre here. I am pretty hesitant to get involved with any posts on Snow and Mud outside of the avalanche safety form because normally we just like to stick to the topic that we know something about - current conditions. But since this one is very related to the financial health of the avalanche centre I thought I would offer some insight into what we are facing.

We have done over 200 media interviews in the wake of the Boulder incident and lately they have become interested in the finances of the Avalanche Centre. This is not by coincidence... We have been very open about our bad fiscal year and our shaky bottom line and they have picked up on our concern. As with anything from the media it is an interpreted message, so you have to be careful to take things with a bit of a grain of salt. By and large the information is pretty good. Here are some comments on what people are saying on this thread and what the media is saying.

First of all - our main goal at the Avalanche Centre is to keep people safe in the backcountry and we think there is every reason to believe that we can accomplish that task through modest investment in warnings, education and training. We try hard to be non-aligned in other issues - I really hope that comes through most of the time. We do challenge folks who should be contributing - and it can sound pretty harsh at times, but our target is improved services and improved safety, not anti-snowmobiling.

Second, within the last few weeks donations have really picked up from grassroots sources within the snowmobile sector. This is great news and is not really reflected in the stories that are out there now. Thanks to all the folks who have taken the time to send in a checque to the CAC!! It's helping.

That being said, the whole "direct donations" to the CAC accounts for less than $40k or 5% of our budget. (a complicated detail is that we also get charitable donations through the Canadian Avalanche Foundation - most of this originates from corporate Calgary circles)

The list of supporter ($200) members on our website is mostly by corporations and businesses. The person listed may just serve as the contact for that business. This is a shortcoming of the way the data is drawn from our website, and I hope to change this soon - we dropped a lot of improvements on the website this year to focus on the public safety information. Many of the members listed are joint members of the Avalanche centre and the Avalanche Association - complicated, I know, but it makes a difference to the amount of funding that flows to the Centre which totals about $3500 per year from membership.

Another important piece of news is that the Association of British Columbia Snowmobiling Clubs has announced a $5000 contribution to the CAC in recognition of our difficult financial situation and in memory of Terry Watt. This is great news and the first direct financial contribution that I can remember from one of the umbrella organizations for snowmobile clubs, though Alberta Snowmobile Club has been generous with in-kind support for some time.

So how did we get in trouble this year? Well there were several reasons. The main one is that we really bumped up the level of service in public avalanche bulletins - daily updates of danger ratings, new information on primary concerns and daily weather information, to name a few things. Behind the scenes we are doing more detailed analysis of conditions and checking more sources of information than ever before. To pay for this, we thought we could bump up revenues and reduce expenditures in other areas, but it didn't work out that way. The recession kicked in and our expenses were higher than we thought.

But the real reason is that we are trying to deliver 2010 services for 2004 budget. Our revenue from Government sources has not kept pace with the times. We are doing twice the number of workshops, serving out twice the number of AST courses, doing four times the number of media interviews, and six times the number of press releases than we did in 2004. BC's contribution has grown from $125k to $150k during that time, with the requirement to do an additional avalanche forecast area on the North Shore. Alberta's funding has stayed the same and will likely be reduced by 10-17% this year. The only major funder that has increased funding without an increase in demands between 2004 and today is Parks Canada.

We are very conscious that this is a recession and governments are cutting back, but I think that we can all understand that $150,000 is not a huge sum of money and, say, doubling it would not be a very big burden on the taxpayer. I have been looking for a good analogy about what $150k gives you in government services these days - probably about 2 "Best place on Earth" billboards, or something like that... i'm interested in your remarks on that one.

Are these investments in the CAC good? Well the RCMP stated publicly that if it weren't for the public avalanche warnings out the crowd at Boulder could have been much bigger. It is not hard to do the math. The truth is that the we are all going to pay whether in prevention costs, or in rescue costs, and I know what I would rather do. Over time public avalanche safety is a good investment.

The CAC is founded with the idea that the government and the private sector fund the avalanche bulletins together. This is pretty established with skiing sector. One thing that this thread does not mention is the value of the information that comes from the skiing sector, (heliskiing, cat skiing and ski areas) to create the bulletins. Most of the CAC's information for bulletins is donated free of charge by these businesses. If we had to collect it it would cost us millions (estimated at 2 million by the govt. of BC in 2003). We need to get the snowmobile sector slowly up to par in this aspect.

There have been some good successes with Yamaha and BRP as sponsors.
On a more negative note we are having trouble with even having a conversation with Arctic Cat over a past due bill for $1000. In November 2008 we put together a deal with the four manufacturers to produce a static sticker for mountain sleds that said "go big AND go home - check avalanche conditions www.avalanche.ca" The four reps said that they would pay $1000 each and we said we would absorb the creative costs. Two years later and Arctic Cat has yet to pay...

Anyway, enough for now. I hope this helps you understand the inner workings of the CAC. For your information, our financial statements are available to members for the asking, so if you want to know more, just let me know.

Regards,

John Kelly,
Operations Manager CAC

 

[maxwell]

government funding is pathetic at best. this information should be on tv, commercials, radio, billboards. throughout bc and alberta. considering the amount of tourism dollars brought into bc from backcountry users. i think mister kash heed should be firing his group of 10 highly paid investigators and send that million dollars to the CAC. money better spent. if EVERYONE knew how to access this information and it was forced into their brains before they left things might be better. i realize you just need to type avalanche.ca to check. but in discussion on the hill there are many people that are unaware of this information

 

[Zacs]

Thanks for the post JK.

I would also like members to acknowledge the support of these companies that are supporting the fundraiser Candles to Remember

• SnowAndMud.com
• Alberta Snowmobile Association
• Zac's Tracs
• Avalanche Safety Solutions
• St Paul Power Merchants

The Candles to Remember fundraiser may have wrapped up the orders for candle sets, however the online system will be open to accept cash donations year-round.


Please pass around this link.

As of March 28/10 Zac's Tracs has collected $3405 from snowmobilers on behalf of the Canadian Avalanche Centre.
This is over and above the funds collected by Sherry Waldroff directly.



Thanks to GasCan for his challenge to companies to meet or beat his contribution of $250!

Follow this link to acknowledge the private and corporate contributors and while you're there be sure to make your own donation.
Don't forget to push your elected officials to reconsider their government's level of commitment!

 

[GasCan]

Mr. Kelly,

Thanks for taking the time to chime in and offer a heads up view of the CAC and your recent undertakings. I will take the time to write to local politicians in hopes that it will help focus attention on your group, and will continue to challenge other riding groups, corporate sponsors and individuals to step up and do what they can to help out.

I would also like to thank Randy & Lori Zakaruk for shining a light on this topic and for taking the time to get involved. You have made it easy for individuals and corporations to donate straight through the Zacs Tracs web site, and good on you Lori for doing this! Also, I think a big thank you is owing to Ron and everyone at Snow & Mud for allowing supportive info like this to be posted here. Snow & Mud is an awesome venue that brings all of us together and I know the S&M has also been very supportive of the Canadian Avalanche Center both financially, as well as in kind.

Now for the rest of us...lets all (each and every one of us) pitch in and help the CAC. Even snow reports from the areas you ride in will help the CAC with info being shared. Please read John Kelly's post above, and give where you can.

 

[Taminator]

"The Boulder Mountain slide, which killed two Albertans, cost the CAC around $14,000 in overtime and operations, as staff were swarmed with questions and media requests in the wake of the avalanche."


Easy to see why the funds are short... That's just the CAC O/T wages to talk about the slide!??


I use the CAC bulletins daily during sledding season. I feel they provide a very valuable service. Maybe it's just time for a budget overhaul and some new methods of generating income-just like you do in any business occassionally.

 

[Modman]

......Alberta's funding has stayed the same and will likely be reduced by 10-17% this year. The only major funder that has increased funding without an increase in demands between 2004 and today is Parks Canada. .....

There have been some good successes with Yamaha and BRP as sponsors.
On a more negative note we are having trouble with even having a conversation with Arctic Cat over a past due bill for $1000. ......

Anyway, enough for now. I hope this helps you understand the inner workings of the CAC. For your information, our financial statements are available to members for the asking, so if you want to know more, just let me know.

Regards,

John Kelly,
Operations Manager CAC

Mr. Kelly,

First off - Thanks for a great post. Really highlights some of the key points addressed as major issues and demonstrates the transparency of the CAC.

Just had a question:

Is there someone specific at the AB gov't we can petition to get the ball rolling to provide additional funding (a dept you deal with)? I'm sure a large portion of the sledders on this site would be willing to sign a petition or sign a form letter to a member of parliament asking this to be rectified. I'm embarassed to see a comment about AB cutting funding, especially when we see so many users from AB in the mountains. I can draft a form letter/email for others to send, just need to know a specific person or dept to send it to, otherwise it seems to get "lost" if you just send something to general mail. Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

Secondly - If there are any AC dealers out there that know the regional rep......now this issue has been brought to light, maybe someone can mention this be passed up the chain of command? Great to hear that BRP is on board - Kudo's to Randy and Yamaha as always.

Let's work to keep this thread at the top.

 

[AvyDaze]

Hi again,

In my post I neglected to mention an important point about donations. If you donate directly to the Canadian Avalanche Foundation:

(403) 678-1235 or info@avalanchefoundation.com

You can get a charitable tax receipt for your contribution. The amount you donate is deductible from your income on your income tax statement.

Also, I need to extend thanks to the Candles to Remember initiative... this is a great gift to the Avalanche Centre. Money donated there will go to improving the trip planner part of the CAC website to offer more information on snowmobile terrain. I have not properly recognized the fantastic effort from Sherry and the people who helped her put this together. I am sorry for this oversight.

Regards,

John Kelly

 

[Bogger]

There can ALWAYS be more private sector funding.... I've NEVER been to the Canadian mountains in winter yet still provided a small donation.

What bothers me is the fact that our govenments (provincial & federal) throw money around by the millions at a multitude of services and social programs which I will never need/require or care about...Yet for all the tax dollars spent by sledders the contribution is pitifull.

Our government will spend millions of dollars helping those who are too lazy and/or stupid to help themselves and OUR tax dollars fund it.

Here is a direct quote from the federal governments 2010 budget....

"Honouring Canada's International Commitments

Canada is a global leader and continuously demonstrates this by honouring its international commitments. The importance of accountability for promises will be a defining feature of Canada's G8 and G20 Summit year. Budget 2010 fulfills Canada's commitment to double international assistance by increasing the International Assistance Envelope by $364 million, bringing it to $5 billion in ongoing annual support."

5 BILLION dollars to International assistance while our own government services struggle

Our government is so fugged up.......

 

[imdoo'n]

Mr. Kelly,

First off - Thanks for a great post. Really highlights some of the key points addressed as major issues and demonstrates the transparency of the CAC.

Just had a question:

Is there someone specific at the AB gov't we can petition to get the ball rolling to provide additional funding (a dept you deal with)? I'm sure a large portion of the sledders on this site would be willing to sign a petition or sign a form letter to a member of parliament asking this to be rectified. I'm embarassed to see a comment about AB cutting funding, especially when we see so many users from AB in the mountains. I can draft a form letter/email for others to send, just need to know a specific person or dept to send it to, otherwise it seems to get "lost" if you just send something to general mail. Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

Secondly - If there are any AC dealers out there that know the regional rep......now this issue has been brought to light, maybe someone can mention this be passed up the chain of command? Great to hear that BRP is on board - Kudo's to Randy and Yamaha as always.

Let's work to keep this thread at the top.

like your idea mr modman, if all we did was send that letter to our elected MP and maybe even to his competition( opposition party) maybe we could get more funding. Again great idea, it's a start and couldn't hurt. just think what5 to 10,00 letters can do. you make it and i'll send it.

 

[glengine]

It would be nice if some of the companies like klim and hmk and companies like that if they would send some kind of donations in as they make a very large amount of money off of the sledders.

 

[AvyDaze]

Mr. Kelly,

First off - Thanks for a great post. Really highlights some of the key points addressed as major issues and demonstrates the transparency of the CAC.

Just had a question:

Is there someone specific at the AB gov't we can petition to get the ball rolling to provide additional funding (a dept you deal with)? I'm sure a large portion of the sledders on this site would be willing to sign a petition or sign a form letter to a member of parliament asking this to be rectified. I'm embarassed to see a comment about AB cutting funding, especially when we see so many users from AB in the mountains. I can draft a form letter/email for others to send, just need to know a specific person or dept to send it to, otherwise it seems to get "lost" if you just send something to general mail. Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

Secondly - If there are any AC dealers out there that know the regional rep......now this issue has been brought to light, maybe someone can mention this be passed up the chain of command? Great to hear that BRP is on board - Kudo's to Randy and Yamaha as always.

Let's work to keep this thread at the top.

Alberta Environment is the department we get funding from. The minister is Rob Renner, parlementary assistant is Cal Dallas.

We deal with some good folks there in the trenches at AE, and I wouldn't want to put them on the spot as the bearers of bad news, so probably directing requests to one of the politicos would be the best thing to do. One of the problems we face with AB is nobody in govt. at the political level will really step up and say "this is my dog". This allows them to throw a bit of cash at the CAC but not really take any responsibility for a discussion on cost versus benefit of the services.

The folks we deal with in the trenches are really on our side, but they aren't setting budgets or determining priorities --- and they are getting cut brutally too! As I said in my earlier post, times are tough all over - We need another injection of cash from AB, but so does the food bank and so does legal aid. The bottom line is that this is a good investment in people's lives - and the cost is going to be more for the govt. in medical, legal and rescue if they don't invest.

 

[climbmax]

It would be nice if some of the companies like klim and hmk and companies like that if they would send some kind of donations in as they make a very large amount of money off of the sledders.

You hit the nail on the head. The aftermarket wouldn't exist if not for sledders either. They are often take but never return. BCA seems to be the exception at this point........but I haven't looked at the other Avy suppliers.
As far as clothing, hot rod parts, specialty shops, resorts, etc etc.....they all need to get on the program.
Safe sleddin'
RS

 

[Modman]

Alberta Environment is the department we get funding from. The minister is Rob Renner, parlementary assistant is Cal Dallas.

We deal with some good folks there in the trenches at AE, and I wouldn't want to put them on the spot as the bearers of bad news, so probably directing requests to one of the politicos would be the best thing to do. One of the problems we face with AB is nobody in govt. at the political level will really step up and say "this is my dog". This allows them to throw a bit of cash at the CAC but not really take any responsibility for a discussion on cost versus benefit of the services.

The folks we deal with in the trenches are really on our side, but they aren't setting budgets or determining priorities --- and they are getting cut brutally too! As I said in my earlier post, times are tough all over - We need another injection of cash from AB, but so does the food bank and so does legal aid. The bottom line is that this is a good investment in people's lives - and the cost is going to be more for the govt. in medical, legal and rescue if they don't invest.

Thanks. Environmental ministry and Rob Renner was the name I was looking for. I didn't mean to drag anyone into it, especially the AENV employees, as you stated, they are the ones doing the work, the funding we need comes from the top shelf.

While there are always areas that funding can be allocated to, AB has been fortunate to fall on some better prosperity than some other areas, and I would surely like to see a small amount of taxes we pay be used to protect and provide the services that we utilize. Maybe Eddie Stelmach can take a pay cut and we can use that funding - I don't think he's falling on hard times these days.

Will try and get a form letter drafted in the next couple of days.

Thanks again.

 

[AvyDaze]

Hi folks,

Fourth post today: We just got off the phone with representatives of Alberta Environment and they have confirmed funding for the Canadian Avalanche Centre with no cuts for the coming season. This is great news. The situation is changing fast and for the first time in months I am feeling better about the financial picture

We still need to work with the Alberta Govt. to help them understand that the CAC isn't just bulletins. The work we do in AB is more related to education, outreach and data collection for the South Rockies area, and not for public bulletins in British Columbia. But overall we are pleased with the quick indication of support.

Next we need to talk about commitments to more than one year of funding, and bringing funding up to date for 2010. Sigh!

 

[freehand]

why not give a percentage of the taxes on sled sales? to the Avalanche Centre..

 

[RGM]

I think ABC is giving 1 buck from every membership to CAC.

 

[Depsnolvr]

I think ABC is giving 1 buck from every membership to CAC.

Yes, the CAC is set to receive a good amount of support from the trail pass sales this year. I believe it will be each individual clubs choice, but as far as I know, every ABC club is on board with this and we are very excited to participate

 

[OOC ZigZag]

It would be nice if some of the companies like klim and hmk and companies like that if they would send some kind of donations in as they make a very large amount of money off of the sledders.

I agree all the companies that benefit from back country rec use should have to give a little back. The sled makers should be kickin in more they are the ones who continue to make the machines more capable of going to more remote locations. I think donations from sledders is great but the CORPS got way more cash and will have a bigger impact. :d

 

[climbmax]

I agree all the companies that benefit from back country rec use should have to give a little back. The sled makers should be kickin in more they are the ones who continue to make the machines more capable of going to more remote locations. I think donations from sledders is great but the CORPS got way more cash and will have a bigger impact. :d

All 4 sled mfg's have now agreed to support the CAC via ISMA moving forward.
The aftermarket portion of the business needs to be next. Believe it or not,they outsell new sled sales annually.

FYI.....you don't see any ski mfgs supporting the CAC directly on the skiing side

Safe sleddin
RS