You're confused - I said "ask them what they recommend YOU run" not "run the same fuel/alcohol they run in a top fueler with 60 PSI blower pressures." Yeah, I'll watch some guy with 12:1, dump "home brew" fuel into his crappy street car because he thinks it'll make more power, I could care less about him. My sled costs more than most of the "street" rods you are talking about. I'm talking about serious power engines. 2000 HP+. No one I know that runs in this range fills their car at the local airport. When I'm running at 8500 rpm for a vertical 1/2 mile I don't want to worry about what's in my tank.
AV Gas(100ll) shelf life?
- Thread starter venom
- Start date
You're confused - I said "ask them what they recommend YOU run" not "run the same fuel/alcohol they run in a top fueler with 60 PSI blower pressures." Yeah, I'll watch some guy with 12:1, dump "home brew" fuel into his crappy street car because he thinks it'll make more power, I could care less about him. My sled costs more than most of the "street" rods you are talking about. I'm talking about serious power engines. 2000 HP+. No one I know that runs in this range fills their car at the local airport. When I'm running at 8500 rpm for a vertical 1/2 mile I don't want to worry about what's in my tank.
overkill131313
Active VIP Member
so now your saying your sled has 2000 HP so you cant run AV gas in it?????WTF? I used to run 25 psi in my Buick Grand National and ran 50-50 xylene and av-gas......ran like that all the time.....I had $12 000 in to the little V-6 engine......I think that engine was expensive so I Made GOOD fuel for it and the knock gauge said it was good.
really you have to compare apples to apples. sled 300-400 hp running under 20 PSI boost with probably a head shim! ya not 2000+ HP if I was running 2000+ HP in my sled I sure the F@#K wouldnt be running AV gas.......I would be looking for a match to light the solid rocket boosters that would be strapped to each side......back to the tread....SHELF LIFE OF AV GAS!
I think I found your Baseball JBB!
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LOL - yes, I just said my sled has 2000 HP.
how many miles you get on a 4 stroke motor vs my high strung 2 stroker? yeah.....This subject is a dead horse because guys running av gas are trying to convince themselves that av gas is the same as race gas. Does av gas work for the application you are using it for? Yes. Am I debating that point? No. Is it the same as race fuel? well....
Here is something you should read:
"I am going to attempt to address the controversy of aviation gasoline verses racing gasoline for use in race cars. Some racers use aviation gasoline which is fine for some applications but does have shortcomings. There are several grades of aviation gasoline (avgas) that we must identify before going any farther.
1. Avgas 80/87: this product is used in low compression ratio aircraft engines, contains little or no lead, is red in color, and should not be used in any automotive engine due to a low motor octane number of about 80.
2. Avgas 100/130: this product that can be used in some automotive engines. It has both research and motor octane numbers slightly over 100. Avgas 100/130 is green in color, contains four grams of lead per gallon, and is becoming harder to find.
3. Avgas 100 LL: the LL stands for "low-lead" which means two grams per gallon, low compared to the avgas 100/130 that it was designed to replace. It has research and motor octane numbers very similar to the 100/130 product previously discussed. The color is blue. This product sometimes has a high level of aromatics which can contribute to lazy throttle response and dissatisfaction of the consumer.
4. Avgas 115/145: this product was developed for high performance piston aircraft engines used in world war II and in the Korean war. It is very hard to find anymore due to lack of demand although it is of very high octane quality. The color is purple.
The remainder of this discussion will assume that our basis for comparison with racing gasoline is avgas 100/130 and/or 100 LL since they are both available and have acceptable octane quality for limited applications. When the word "avgas" is used, it will refer to avgas 100/130 or 100 LL.
Avgas is less dense than most racing gasolines. Instead of weighing about 6.1 to 6.3 pounds per gallon like racing gasoline, it weighs 5.8 to 5.9 pounds per gallon. The racer must compensate for this by changing to richer (larger) jets in the carburetor when changing from racing gasoline to avgas.
The other major difference is octane quality. Avgas is short on octane compared to most racing gasolines. Many racing engines with "quick" spark advance curves or with no centrifugal advance have more spark advance at low rpm than avgas and some racing gasolines can handle. The result is detonation, especially during caution periods in circle track racing because all of the spark advance is "in", rpm is low, and part throttle air fuel ratios are too lean for the operating conditions. If the driver does not "work" the throttle back and forth, pistons can be "burned" which melts away part of the aluminum piston material. Inadequate octane quality is one of the quickest ways to destroy an engine. Pistons can be severely damaged during one acceleration where detonation is present and the racer may not know what is happening until it is too late.
For maximum performance and power from a racing engine, racing gasoline will normally provide better performance than avgas. Avgas can be a good gasoline for some applications, but since most racers do not know the octane requirement of their engines, they would be better off with a "real" racing gasoline that will give them the overall resistance to detonation that they need to protect their investment. If someone has spent from $15,000 to $50,000 or more on their racing engine, it is foolish to cut corners on gasoline be sure you have a gasoline with adequate octane quality."
DaveB
Active VIP Member
A better read:
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.
I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.
Good Luck,
Steve Poole
Real info on Race Gas/Av Gas...
My experience comes from 7 years as the western states representative for 76 Race Fuel, Unocals 40 hours Advanced Products course, Working personally with Tim Wusz (senior performance products Rep for Unocal, Tim was responsible for Unocals race fuel development for 30+ years). I have also met and discussed fuels/motors with just about every engine builder in every facet of racing in the western United States. I also conducted Educational Seminars at the Fred L. Hartley Institute in Brea in which we would invite Engine Builders for a tour of Unocals testing facilities and do live octane tests on any gasoline they would choose to bring to the seminar. Included in the training we would demonstrate live tests how Distillation curve, Reid Vapor Pressure, Specific Gravity, Octane Rating, F;ashpoint, etc are conducted and the importance of these numbers. Some of you will remember me from contingency with my 76 Racing Gasoline hospitality trailer in the 1990's.
Through the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's Av gas was the base product used for most racing "gasoline". VP, f&L, Turbo Blue, and Trick all used AV gas as the base product. They would buy a tanker (8000 gallons of Av Gas) than add other hydrocarbons/TetraEthylLead (TEL) to the base, drive around the block stopping and accelerating the truck/trailer until they felt the product was mixed well. Obviously this was not science, but it worked for most racers only because most racers use a higher rated octane than they actually need.
In the mid to late 1990's VP graduated to buying there own base product and do there blending of products in a much better fashion. Turbo Blue and Trick have since been bought Sunoco and are blended by Sonoco. Trick was purchased by Phillips 66 and has continued to be blended by Phillips 66.
The only two companies I am aware of who "cracked" there own base product is Sunoco and 76. And as we all know, 76 race fuel is no longer available, leaving only one true manufacturer of Racing Gasoline....Sunoco.
AV Gas has a MOR (motor octane rating) of 96, R+M/2 rating of 100, and ROM (Research Octane Rating) of 106.
AV Gas is lighter than racing gasoline thus more fuel/larger jetting is required. Jetted correctly you should not experience a lean burn at WOT.
I would not use AV Gas as a cleaner. The amount of TEL (2 grams/gallon) and other hydrocarbons makes it extremely carcinogenic. Same goes for all other racing gasolines.
Shelf life is NOT better. The reason pump gas won't last as long is because street gas has extremely lightend hydrocarbons to help your car start and idle. Racing Gasoline does not have these light end hydrocarbons needed for idle and starting, hence the reason race motors start and idle poorly.
Av Gas is NOT designed for low RPM motors. AV Gas is designed to not detonate/preignite causing detination. This would be the same design as race fuel. If you compare the "distillation curve" of AV Gas to Race Gas, you will find they are almost identical. The "distillation curve" controls the speed of burn across the combustion chamber.
You will only "spit" gas out the exhaust pipes if you run to rich or include a supercharger/turbocharger on your engine and "overdrive" the blower. Example would be the bitchin flames you see at the starting line of a drag race on normally aspirated engines and the long flames you see on all "blown" engines.
The LEAD (TEL) added to AV Gas is to increase the octane rating only. All heads these days have harden valve seats. There is no need for lubrication of the valve seats. All engines have come with harden seats since the late 60's.
AV Gas is not formulated for High Altitude. and will have very little, if not any performance differences vs racing gasoline. On the other hand, commercial grade fuels (87, 89, 92) will definitely enhance your performance due to the commercial fuel being oxygenated. The Oxygen enhancers added to commercial fuel is only for California Smog laws.
Advancing timing on your motor will definitely help with AV Gas and Race Gas due to its slow burn characteristics. On the other hand, be careful if your running commercial grade gasoline, more timing can cause detonation/preignition quit quickly.
AV Gas does not go BAD faster. It is extremely consistent. The MOR is only 96, whereas Sunoco Purple or VP C12 is 104. A rating of 96 is good for up to 10:1 on Steel heads and 12:1 on Aluminum heads with water cooling. Air cooled motors run much hotter.
Buying a higher octane for a $20-50K motor is the cheapest insurance available.
Remember this...OCTANE is a measure of a fuels ability to resist detonation/preignition. The higher the Octane number, the slower the fuel burns. Technically speaking 87 Octane fuel will develop more power than 118 Octane fuel. With this said, you should see gains in throttle response and HP by mixing commercial fuel and AV Gas/Race Gas. You now have some light end Hydrocarbons for throttle response and heavy hydrocarbons/TEL for detonation resistance.
Bottom line... use the most consistent fuel you can find and create horsepower by moving as much air as possible though the combustion chamber.
I have no reason to be bias here as I have moved on to much greener pastures. See you on the race course.
Good Luck,
Steve Poole
DRD
Active VIP Member
Av has it's place.
Would I run it in a turbo 2-stroke at 13 Psi, no.
I do run it in my 9000 rpm triple with 14.5:1 compression and .055" squish with absolutely no trouble. Would 111 make more power? Probably, but I'm not racing and looking for that competative edge where 1/10ths of a second seperate 1st place from 5th place.
Would I run it in a turbo 2-stroke at 13 Psi, no.
I do run it in my 9000 rpm triple with 14.5:1 compression and .055" squish with absolutely no trouble. Would 111 make more power? Probably, but I'm not racing and looking for that competative edge where 1/10ths of a second seperate 1st place from 5th place.
Sparx
Active member
AV gas working great in my 2010 M8 with '09 head, 10lbs boost at 6-7000ft. Did set off an octane code but that was riding it hard in 2 ft. of powder at 2000ft on the way up. Backed off and took it easy after that with no issues. Until I turn up the boost more and get some cheaper Race fuel from AFD in Edmonton, I'll be running AV gas. Looks, smells, and runs as good as it did with Race gas. If I didn't tell people it was AV gas you really wouldn't know a difference. That's all I need in this sled, why would I burn more expensive fuel it really doesn't need, just to be safe? Why don't you run the expensive 118 race since it would make you safer than running 110 or 112 octane??? In the end unfortunately money matters, and you know what, that DET sensor works pretty good so you might as well use it :d
Chrisco
Active VIP Member
3200 miles on AV gas on my 08 dragon at 12 lbs boost with no problems 1.50 pr liter. My head is also cut but other than that stock motor and will run 14 lbs with no det.
Sparx
Active member
Same price here in the Mac if anyone is curious, just filled 221L for $353.60 on a drum including GST.... McMurray Aviation at the airport will take care of you, drive your truck right up to the tanker truck!
Kyle91rs
Active VIP Member
Hey guys don't really wanna interupt the party here, but I just picked up a 14:1 compression head for my m1000 with a full exhaust, bdocker box and egts, what type/ratio of fuel would you recommend up here in fort Mac?
heavy d
Active VIP Member
Modman, I am going to try and simplify the last few paragraphs, please correct me if I'm wrong.
There is no such thing as too much octane? Just a point at which your wasting your money? Correct?
If your motor requires an octane amount of 105 to run safely (no det.), runing VP, C12 will not hurt the motor in any way, correct?
If needing 100 octane fuel for safe operation, running 110 octane WILL NOT, hurt your engine, Correct ?
You can not hurt your engine by running more octane than required, correct?
There is no such thing as too much octane? Just a point at which your wasting your money? Correct?
If your motor requires an octane amount of 105 to run safely (no det.), runing VP, C12 will not hurt the motor in any way, correct?
If needing 100 octane fuel for safe operation, running 110 octane WILL NOT, hurt your engine, Correct ?
You can not hurt your engine by running more octane than required, correct?
Sparx
Active member
Correct up to a certain point. Some guys on M1000's were running poorly on premium pump. Once they switched to regular 87 octane for which the sled was tuned to they would run right. Another downfall is extra octane hurts the wallet for no reason. Always better to be safe than sorry up to a certain point... Who would want to use race fuel when there's plenty of margin for error when running AV gas for half the price???
You can actually hurt performance running too much octane, just not as much negative effects as running too little octane however. Just keep it practical and you should be okay.
You can actually hurt performance running too much octane, just not as much negative effects as running too little octane however. Just keep it practical and you should be okay.
DaveB
Active VIP Member
You won't hurt the motor, but you can hurt performance.
heavy d
Active VIP Member
Thanks Dave B
Like DaveB said, too much octane will hurt performance. Ya, I'm being picked on here for suggesting people use race gas rather than av gas. Does av gas work for the application we use it for? Yes.
Should you run av gas instead of race gas? Run what you want, there is no difference in octane in race vs av gas. Is there a difference in consistency? IMO yes, race gas is more consistent. That's just my opinion though. A direct relative of mine sells fuel for a living and that's what he told me (no he doesn't sell race gas so he's not biased), sorry if I took his 40 yrs of experience and tried to share it.
I'm outta here.
heavy d
Active VIP Member
Thanks modman, we share the same opinion, I am a race gas over av gas guy all the way. The last year or so I have been using renegade race fuel, and could not be happier (wife works for a rep), I get dealer pricing so it's a nice break on the pocket book as well.........still a very cheap price to pay for piece of mind
- Thread starter
- #38
Beaver
Active member
I have a Question for all This feul knoledge.I ran only LL100 out of the airport at revy for 2 years.I have MCX Apex 310and we would put 2-2500 km / yr.The thing ran flawless.I thought i should change the plugs.... just cause?guess what,I twisted a plug off???So off with the head,when we pulled the head off the whole thing had about 1/16 of this metaliky looking crust that would come off in flakes.I had to have the head ported to get rid of it.Has anyone ever seen this before?Nobody i talked to knew but a few thought it could be Lead from the av gas.oh by the way that ch!t was in the bottom thread of the plug and caused it to twist off.the plug had to be machined out of the head
Beels
Active VIP Member
Most of the race fuel you buy is leaded so I'm quite sure the lead in 100LL isn't your issue.
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