Another gas question (ETHANOL)

[ferniesnow]

Depends on who you ask! Everyone in that thread seemed to know their own version of the truth.

Isn't that the whole truth and nothing but the truth!!!!!!!

 

[Badass69]

The knock is not from being slightly lean but from lower than required octane level.

Unfortunately your wrong there. No..... it is from being lean. Notice the difference in stoich I posted? The octane on ethanol is approximately 110......E85 is about 105 octane and that's why 91 premium with 10% magically becomes 94 octane rated. You have plenty of knock resistance with alcohol from that standpoint. You have to increase you fueling tables slightly to compensate for alcohol content because it is less energetic than gasoline. Those two things go hand in hand.....The same flow of E10 is not going to do the same amount of work as pure gasoline would. It's why an E85 equipped truck has 36 pound per hour injectors and a regular non flex one has 26 pph...... Or why stoich is now dropped to 14.43:1 ( a midway point between pure gas and E10) on most late model vehicles. The smaller the number gets the richer it is. So to take advantage of that higher antiknock number you have to make sure you are burning more of it. I tune GM stuff with EFIlive for fun.... It's lean. My old SRT8 Charger was very sensitive to this..... but once the fueling was adjusted slightly it ran great on 94 Husky. Before it wasn't so good with quite a bit of timing loss to knock retard... And that car was still set to 14.7:1 stoich probably as it was only recommended to run on 91 octane fuel or higher and I guess Chrysler figured all premium was pure gas. Increase fueling slightly across the board and the knock went away... And that was still with the stock timing settings... not the increase we did after.

Otherwise the affinity to water is true as with any other anhydrous product. They absorb moisture. But I have never had an issue with it in what..... 7 or 8 years of ethanol fuels now?

It's not going away anytime soon so you can try and avoid for as long as you can or just accept and deal with it.

 

[cooper]

Awesome info guys. Thanks a bunch! So why is ethanol so bad for sled motors?

I think it attracts moister which makes rust and washes the oil off the cylinder wall. maybe.

 

[Got boost want snow]

Grande Prairie costco premium contains no ethanol, any of the pumps now that contain ethanol must have labels with percentage ie; regular contains up to 10% and mid up to 5%. Up until spring premium had contained 0. I only run costco premium in my turbo because being almost 10 cents a litre cheaper they move more fuel, so are apt to have the freshest fuel in GP

 

[Modman]

Unfortunately your wrong there. No..... it is from being lean. Notice the difference in stoich I posted? The octane on ethanol is approximately 110......E85 is about 105 octane and that's why 91 premium with 10% magically becomes 94 octane rated. You have plenty of knock resistance with alcohol from that standpoint. You have to increase you fueling tables slightly to compensate for alcohol content because it is less energetic than gasoline. Those two things go hand in hand.....The same flow of E10 is not going to do the same amount of work as pure gasoline would. It's why an E85 equipped truck has 36 pound per hour injectors and a regular non flex one has 26 pph...... Or why stoich is now dropped to 14.43:1 ( a midway point between pure gas and E10) on most late model vehicles. The smaller the number gets the richer it is. So to take advantage of that higher antiknock number you have to make sure you are burning more of it. I tune GM stuff with EFIlive for fun.... It's lean. My old SRT8 Charger was very sensitive to this..... but once the fueling was adjusted slightly it ran great on 94 Husky. Before it wasn't so good with quite a bit of timing loss to knock retard... And that car was still set to 14.7:1 stoich probably as it was only recommended to run on 91 octane fuel or higher and I guess Chrysler figured all premium was pure gas. Increase fueling slightly across the board and the knock went away... And that was still with the stock timing settings... not the increase we did after.

Otherwise the affinity to water is true as with any other anhydrous product. They absorb moisture. But I have never had an issue with it in what..... 7 or 8 years of ethanol fuels now?

It's not going away anytime soon so you can try and avoid for as long as you can or just accept and deal with it.

Actually the knock can be from either or both. Ethanol is hydrophillic, attracts water and dissolves in it which will lower the octane. Ethanol is alcohol and can't be compared to fuel. You are correct that any standard motor will need more ethanol to run, so if someone is trying to run ethanol through jetting designed for gas, you will burn down, hence the other potential source of the knock. This is reserved for vehicles running a significant portion of ethanol in the fuel. You need roughly 1.6 times the amount of ethanol compared to pump gas (for pure ethanol). The knock can come from either of them. These higher octane fuels are allowing the higher combustion pressures in today's engines for cleaner burns and to lower NOx emissions and particulates in todays exhausts compared to traditional fuels.

You don't need to burn more of a higher octane fuel to take advantage of the octane, you just need to increase the compression, among a few other things. Alcohol-based motors can be made far more energy efficient to harness that energy than gasoline engines. Alcohol has a cooling effect as it is injected and will absorb more combustion heat, meaning if your motor is set up for it (compression, timing etc), you can run higher compressions and actually achieve more power.

Anywho, to answer Highfly's question: Ethanol is bad for sleds because it attracts water, which could then freeze in your fuel lines. A large portion of it in your fuel will mean you need to re-jet (not something I personally would worry about from Costco's pumps as the blend can be UP TO 10% but not necessarily always as high as 10%). The other big one for sleds is that Ethanol is a powerful solvent and will wash the gunk out of your tank, fuel pump and lines, all which could get stuck in your carbs/injectors on the way through and plug one of them, causing a lean burn down. If you've always used it from day one in a brand new sled, its probably already washed it out or never had the chance to build up, this is more of a concern for old sleds switching over. Hope that helps!

 

[Badass69]

Actually the knock can be from either or both. Ethanol is hydrophillic, attracts water and dissolves in it which will lower the octane. Ethanol is alcohol and can't be compared to fuel. You are correct that any standard motor will need more ethanol to run, so if someone is trying to run ethanol through jetting designed for gas, you will burn down, hence the other potential source of the knock. This is reserved for vehicles running a significant portion of ethanol in the fuel. You need roughly 1.6 times the amount of ethanol compared to pump gas (for pure ethanol). The knock can come from either of them. These higher octane fuels are allowing the higher combustion pressures in today's engines for cleaner burns and to lower NOx emissions and particulates in todays exhausts compared to traditional fuels.

You don't need to burn more of a higher octane fuel to take advantage of the octane, you just need to increase the compression, among a few other things. Alcohol-based motors can be made far more energy efficient to harness that energy than gasoline engines. Alcohol has a cooling effect as it is injected and will absorb more combustion heat, meaning if your motor is set up for it (compression, timing etc), you can run higher compressions and actually achieve more power.

Anywho, to answer Highfly's question: Ethanol is bad for sleds because it attracts water, which could then freeze in your fuel lines. A large portion of it in your fuel will mean you need to re-jet (not something I personally would worry about from Costco's pumps as the blend can be UP TO 10% but not necessarily always as high as 10%). The other big one for sleds is that Ethanol is a powerful solvent and will wash the gunk out of your tank, fuel pump and lines, all which could get stuck in your carbs/injectors on the way through and plug one of them, causing a lean burn down. If you've always used it from day one in a brand new sled, its probably already washed it out or never had the chance to build up, this is more of a concern for old sleds switching over. Hope that helps!

Umm.... Wow. It's all good, I'm done.

 

[tmo1620]

I know I had to use husky 94 once in a pinch last year and that was the one and only day my sled ran like s*it since I have had it. The knock sensor started going off about 3 miles later, followed by a bunch of backfires and then it stalled while idling a couple times and was very hard starting after it stalled. Also my fuel economy went way down that day. I syphoned all the fuel out after the ride and filled with shell v power 91 as I normally did and the sled hasn't skipped a beat since. I usually never run anything but shell 91 in my sled but that day I had no other choice

 

[Carrots]

I know I had to use husky 94 once in a pinch last year and that was the one and only day my sled ran like s*it since I have had it. The knock sensor started going off about 3 miles later, followed by a bunch of backfires and then it stalled while idling a couple times and was very hard starting after it stalled. Also my fuel economy went way down that day. I syphoned all the fuel out after the ride and filled with shell v power 91 as I normally did and the sled hasn't skipped a beat since. I usually never run anything but shell 91 in my sled but that day I had no other choice

That's weird I ran husky 94 on my turbo last season and it ran flawless, and got better fuel mileage too


Sent from a iPhone

 

[Highfly]

Thanks Modman!

Supposedly Costco has no ethanol in their 91 octane fuel according to the puregas website. I honestly have no idea but my guess is being it's 91 octane.... it's ethanol free.

I filled my truck up today at Costco. It said may contain 10% Ethanol but wasn't specific to regular or supreme, just a sticker, but it was on the regular side.......

I also saw Husky on the filler handle. Can't remember who said to look at the handle but some one said look at it.

 

[Highfly]

Searching Costco site for info...

Where does Costco get its gas?​

Costco buys fuel from major refineries and distributors in each area. All Costco gasoline is fully guaranteed, just like the merchandise we sell inside the warehouse.


[h=3]

How does Costco assure their gasoline is high quality?​

[/h]

Since gasoline formulations are specified by government standards, base gasoline is a fungible commodity with little difference between brands.

There are two aspects of fuel quality that depend on the gasoline brand and the individual retailer: detergent additives and station maintenance.

Detergent additives
Since 1995, Federal regulations mandate that all gasoline contain an EPA-approved detergent additive. These additives are designed to minimize engine deposits that can affect vehicle performance and emissions. The various proprietary detergent additive formulations are the main difference between brands of gasoline. All Costco gasoline, both regular and premium unleaded, contains detergent additives.

Station Maintenance
Good station operation and maintenance assures the fuel is filtered, and that no contaminants, such as sediment and water, find their way into our members' vehicles. Costco gas stations are well-maintained by our capable attendants so that only clean gasoline goes into your car.

• Costco uses fuel filters to catch any particles or debris larger than 10 microns in diameter. For comparison, the average human hair is seventy microns thick.
• Our attendants check the nozzle flow rate frequently to assure that our filters are fresh. When the flow rate falls below 8 gallons per minute, we change the filter.
• Costco uses ethanol-compatible filters designed to catch sediment, water, or phase-separated ethanol and water mixtures.
• Costco's electronic sensors continuously monitor our underground storage tanks for water.
• We physically sample our tanks at least weekly to confirm there is no contamination by both visual inspection and chemical detection.

​

 

[Highfly]

What is octane, and is that the only difference between regular and premium unleaded gasoline?​

Octane is a particular hydrocarbon that is part of all gasoline. The precise amount is determined at the refinery. Octane is not an additive to the fuel. Octane levels are the only difference between regular and premium unleaded gasoline sold at Costco.

The amount of octane controls how the fuel burns in your engine. Too little octane can cause knocking or pinging, which over time can harm your engine. Knocking and pinging results when the fuel pre-ignites in the cylinder, ahead of the spark plug ignition. Higher octane controls this pre-ignition.

1. Costco advises that you use the octane rating specified in your owner's manual. In fact, using regular unleaded gasoline in a car that specifies premium unleaded could void your vehicle warranty.
2. If you are using the specified fuel, and you are experiencing engine knock, please consult your auto care professional for a diagnosis of the problem.

Why does Costco gasoline contain ethanol?​

The federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 established the Renewable Fuels Standard, which required that a certain amount of ethanol be used in the nations' fuel supply. The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 increased this amount. Costco gasoline complies with this law, and if our fuel contains ethanol a pump decal will advise you of that fact.
​

 

[adamg]

Why does Costco gasoline contain ethanol?​

The federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 established the Renewable Fuels Standard, which required that a certain amount of ethanol be used in the nations' fuel supply. The Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 increased this amount. Costco gasoline complies with this law, and if our fuel contains ethanol a pump decal will advise you of that fact.
​

Both these Acts are American.

 

[Highfly]

OH crap never thought of that......

 

[tmo1620]

Your turbo is a 4 stroke? The husky fuel ran fine in my yamaha 4 stroke when I had it, Im guessing 4 strokes would handle the ethanol fuel better than a 2 stroke.

That's weird I ran husky 94 on my turbo last season and it ran flawless, and got better fuel mileage too


Sent from a iPhone

 

[pipes]

Both these Acts are American.

Canada is the 51st State

 

[Sparky67]

Canada is the 51st State

x2 thumbs up

 

[lloydguy]

So if ethanol burns leaner and a sled is jetted for non ethanol fuel.How many sizes up
should a guy go with fuel that is 10%?

 

[snowhound63]

From Fas gas web site:

 

[PJ440x]

How about Hughes fuel in Alberta? I was told no Ethanol??

 

[Badass69]

How about Hughes fuel in Alberta? I was told no Ethanol??

In their premium probably not...... most likely as it is 91. Regular, yes...... it's provincial legislation for all 87 octane fuel sold in Alberta. Mid grade has it too as it is simply a blend of premium and regular.