What would you do in this situation??

Vipertonytro · Mar 10, 2014

So a couple weeks back me and a buddy and my two boys 17yrs and 14yrs were riding out at Eagles Pass. Since the Avy danger was high and had pretty good snow we decided to play in the burn area around the lakes below the cabin.

As we were enjoying a lunch break in the sun we looked up at one of the hills back to the South and noticed a good sized portion of the one hill had slid. No sooner did we notice this two sledders came along and were climbing through the burn right beside what had already slid.

So I told my boys what a stupid decision these guys had made and asked my boys. So If that slides again and one or both of those guys gets buried for being stupid what should we do??

1

ut ourselves in danger over their stupidity?
2:Stay in safe area and call S&R?

Im out there training my boys what to do and not to do but I would have been devastated if that hill had slid and we had to make this judgement call.

ps: My boys voted we help even if it put us in danger!!

Seriously what would you do???

Taminator · Mar 10, 2014

For me, I would have to help, not a question even. Unless the danger for more slides was super high or there wasn't anyone to watch for any hangfire, I'd be activating a search. There isn't any way I could sit by and call for S&R despite how stupid the others actions would be. I have some avy training and couldn't live with myself if I didn't act. It would be the same if Search and Rescue based their rescues on whether or not you were stupid and deserved rescue. I would try to save their sorry asses, but rest assured that if we did, I would lecture the sh!t out of them and drive them to the closest avalanche training…anyone in our group would answer the same. Living and riding in a snowmobile area we are exposed to a lot of stupid in the mountains. Quite often we stick close, within a visible distance of said stupid just so we can be ready to save their dumb asses. If you're on a mountain in our area being stupid and I'm out there, you can bet that I will ride up and give you the low down of the avy conditions that day…cuz when you don't know your stuff, it is very obvious to those that do.

~Rowdy~ · Mar 10, 2014

Maybe the question should also be; do you even sit there and watch? If you are, isn't it kind of like promoting poor decisions by giving them an audience? We had the same question come up recently in the AST2 course. Very interesting situation that is for sure.

ducati · Mar 10, 2014

Tough situation to know exactly what a guy would do but I would have to say I would help out after evaluating if the danger of another slide happening is low or non-existent. If there is any danger of another slide I think there would have to be further planning (quickly but still planning) on using spotters to watch for any further slides while a limited number of people go into the danger zone to help. I guess it would really depend on the particular situation and what the potential is for more danger.

I guess what i am getting at is that it wouldn't be a no brainer that I would run to help but I would do everything in my power to help as long as it was not going to put myself or my friends/family in a dangerous situation. Would be much worse turning a 2 victim situation into a 6 victim situation by making a bad decision.

Going off what Rowdy said I firmly believe that in our sledding community we need to voice our concerns to people more often. Who knows, they may not know what they are doing and will take the advice or they will tell you to $%&# off and go back to what they are doing. Either way you have made an attempt to better the entire community through some education.

Vipertonytro · Mar 10, 2014

I guess to clarify we were probably a mile away. They would have had no idea we were an audience.
I have driven up to guys before and warned them about what they were doing only to be told (GO F@#* YOURSELF!!!)

On a second note if I was there with my usual group we would also go and help no questions asked. However I have a hard time putting my kids at risk over someone else's stupidity!!

I really don't know what I would have done had the hill slid on these guys.
Avy danger was very bad at the time as you could watch the snow chunk out even on small little drifts if you crossed them..

maxwell · Mar 10, 2014

had a very similar situation the other day. avalanche alley is known for being a deadly zone in the valemount area. everyone in the "know" just passes by it as fast as possible spread out waiting for each rider to make it through. however the face always has fresh snow on it so folks that really dont know what they are doing sometimes like to poke at it, take there lunch break below it ETC. we were sitting accross the valley from it watching natural selection take its place. these guys were putting stupid marks on this hill and sidehilling accross while there buddies watched and ate lunch from the bottom. ( the small broken and bent trees werent a good indicator i guess). this was the weekend that the SPAW was in effect. so we asked ourselves. do we go let them know they are in a very bad spot and put ourselves in danger? this isnt a spot that you can see the avlanche coming and then pin it full throttle somewhere to escape it. there is a narrow trail surrounded by trees and you have to go IN to the hill before you can escape from its path. option number 2 was to wait for it to come down and bury them then go help? but why? there is still a massive windloaded monster waiting to come down in the shelf above it.? we left. im sure they were fine and got lucky but what if'?

~Rowdy~ · Mar 10, 2014

ducati said:
Tough situation to know exactly what a guy would do but I would have to say I would help out after evaluating if the danger of another slide happening is low or non-existent. If there is any danger of another slide I think there would have to be further planning (quickly but still planning) on using spotters to watch for any further slides while a limited number of people go into the danger zone to help. I guess it would really depend on the particular situation and what the potential is for more danger.

I guess what i am getting at is that it wouldn't be a no brainer that I would run to help but I would do everything in my power to help as long as it was not going to put myself or my friends/family in a dangerous situation. Would be much worse turning a 2 victim situation into a 6 victim situation by making a bad decision.

Going off what Rowdy said I firmly believe that in our sledding community we need to voice our concerns to people more often. Who knows, they may not know what they are doing and will take the advice or they will tell you to $%&# off and go back to what they are doing. Either way you have made an attempt to better the entire community through some education.

It's not always an easy thing to do, to voice your concern, not just in your own group but to another group entirely. I've been met with some harsh words, or the very common comment of "oh that will never slide" "I've never seen that slide in all my years" or "oh it won't reach us here." If this season, and the avalanche conditions have taught me anything, it's that historical boundaries are being broken as far as slides are concerned and the trees aren't always safe as I once thought.

Like anything it's all in how you say something to someone, but some people are naturally defensive. If I was in the situation that Vipertonytro was in and didn't decide to just ride away before anything happened, I might approach it something like this:

"hey buddy, did you notice that part of the face slide? No? Oh I just wanted to make sure you were aware as you were kind of in the same area and didn't want to see you get hurt"

That has the potential to be received better than "Hey you fawkin idiot!" lol

Vipertonytro · Mar 10, 2014

Thanks Rowdy! We did just ride away. For us to go warn them from where we were we would have had to climb up to them. Just the way the hill was we would have been in a terrain trap the whole time just reaching them. And just to note that luckily nothing happened as we went back later and nothing new had slid where they were.

mareshow · Mar 10, 2014

I'd say the largest enemy to the mountain riding community is ourselves. Its these types of situations that should never happen. You can still have a blast riding and be safe while doing it. Get educated. Like Rowdy said don't encourage by watching. A lot of times the type of people making these poor decisions have become complacent and regardless the tone, will not receive your advice or acknowledge they are in the wrong. The whole "I've been riding here for 20 years and never seen this slide" argument or a personal favorite "I'll just ride out the avalanche" that one implies they already know. So i would just get out of there, unfortunately you're not going to change their attitude on the spot, thats up to them.

Again Get educated, talk to Soul Rides, if you think you got some knowledge from AST 1; AST 2 will seriously open your eyes

Summitric · Mar 10, 2014

Good thread and great responses.... Myself? I wouldn't hesitate to help/search, but make dam sure someone was watching for further avy danger, while the rest search...

Taminator · Mar 10, 2014

If I witness peeps that are obviously either uneducated or not using their education, I try to ride up and say 'Hi,are you guys from around here?'….'did you happen to check the avy/weather'….No? then proceed to give them the avy and weather report and ask them to please stay off this, that and that over there'….I've encountered many peeps that are super thankful that really had no clue.

I also encounter a lot of attitude, 'of course we checked…blah blah'…I'll usually ask why they are making stupid choices if they have the knowledge, which goes over well. Haha. Yup, Taminator making friends all over the mountain. lmfao

I honestly don't give a crap if I offend someone or if someone is rude to me cuz they know it all, I can handle it…and would rather approach peeps than not. Sometimes if you actually point out and explain, you can see a lightbulb go off.
We don't sit and watch idiots…if we are far away we keep an eye on them, if they are close then we talk to them. Some continue to do dumb things even if you talk to them and suggest strongly that they don't ride that middle section that hasn't slid yet that has big slides on either side…again, not rocket science, but….

BIGHORN1 · Mar 10, 2014

This is one of them things that needs to be discussed with your riding group on a regular basis. Our group all have ast1 and all of the tools, in a situtation like this is would not be an option to not help out but it would be done safely with someone watching the face. As far as warning people of the danger they are putting themselves in i have done this on several ocasions and some where thankfull and so told me to fly a kite.

For the ones that tell you to fly a kite this may be a good time to politely say that i have let you know of the danger you are putting yourself in so if you decide to continue riding this face do not expect help. This may or may not influence there decision to be there but for some there just going to do what they do.

At the end of they day even after all of the above i would still end up helping as that is just how i roll and it is kinda one of them unwritten rules of riding the hils, sleders helping sleds out.

takethebounce · Mar 10, 2014

I know there are a lot of do gooders on here and everyone only wants the best for their fellow sledders, but do you take it upon yourselves to pull over everyone speeding on the highway because they are putting themselves and everyone else around them in danger? Or move over and let them have at it.

sent from a top secret location

maxwell · Mar 10, 2014

takethebounce said:
I know there are a lot of do gooders on here and everyone only wants the best for their fellow sledders, but do you take it upon yourselves to pull over everyone speeding on the highway because they are putting themselves and everyone else around them in danger? Or move over and let them have at it.

sent from a top secret location

after almost getting beat up a few seasons ago for warning someone about avlanche risk i just dont bothher anymore. fine, die i guess LOL

Weirboondocking · Mar 10, 2014

I would help if it slid. when I see people in danger I make a point of going over introducing myself, asking if they are from around here, offering some local knowledge and from that point if they still feel safe I respect that they may have a different safety threshold then I feel safe with. At this point I feel I have done what I can and its time to get away from that spot.

I have yet to have a rude remark back, but I do think it is key to respect them and their decisions as you approach this way you start out on the right foot, and they are more likely to take the info you offer.

deaner · Mar 10, 2014

I would have always said go and help, no matter what. But after having my first son just over a year ago, I cant say I would ever do anything to put him in harms way. Especially for the stupidity of others. But its a tough situation. Your sons are older and it isnt just a matter of protecting them. You are raising them and trying to teach them to be good people so its kind of a catch 22. Really tough call. But I would say if you did help, make sure it is done VERY safely.

Pistonbroke · Mar 10, 2014

Going to be an interesting thread....

team dirt · Mar 10, 2014

If i went and helped and another slide came down and I was killed who would then help out my young family. Hard decisions need to be made but as we learn in every safety course we do is to protect yourself first as there is no need for more victims. If this was a close friend or family member the choice would be much easier to go in and help but for a complete stranger there is now way I would put myself at risk. The profesionals do not go just rushing in until a highly skilled and trained avy tech has assesed the area so why should I. Hate me if you like but I have a 5 year old and 1 1/2 year old at home and they need their dad around for many more years. It was not me that put those other riders in their situation.

Lund · Mar 10, 2014

Unless we are riding together as partners or i am guiding i never tell people what to do or not to do. Even then i don't tell but make sudgestions. Unfortunitely alot of people will put up their guards and be pissy with you. Plus it is not my place to preach but your responsibility to educate your self. IMO, there is no room for irragance and ignorance out there but many live their whole life that way and there is little for me to do to change that, other then it could ruin a good day for me.

Though if something should happened such as what the OP is sudgesting, i am OBLIGATED to help and do what it takes to safe that person as a member of the SARs unit. Just like a medical doctor is obligated to treat a murdered and preserve his life.

ducati · Mar 10, 2014

~Rowdy~ said:
It's not always an easy thing to do, to voice your concern, not just in your own group but to another group entirely. I've been met with some harsh words, or the very common comment of "oh that will never slide" "I've never seen that slide in all my years" or "oh it won't reach us here." If this season, and the avalanche conditions have taught me anything, it's that historical boundaries are being broken as far as slides are concerned and the trees aren't always safe as I once thought.

Like anything it's all in how you say something to someone, but some people are naturally defensive. If I was in the situation that Vipertonytro was in and didn't decide to just ride away before anything happened, I might approach it something like this:

"hey buddy, did you notice that part of the face slide? No? Oh I just wanted to make sure you were aware as you were kind of in the same area and didn't want to see you get hurt"

That has the potential to be received better than "Hey you fawkin idiot!" lol

I couldn't agree more! Very difficult to know how it will be received when voicing any opinion whether it is based on fact or not. Seems anymore that most people go defensive immediately as opposed to listening and possibly learning something.

We were up in Paradise for a half day a few weeks ago and encountered a couple of natural slides that came down too close to us for our comfort so we called it a day and headed down. When we hit the lot i overheard a guy with his 2 sons ask another guy how the conditions were. This guy then proceeded to tell him conditions were great and everything is good up top. This didn't sit well with me so once i was done loading my sled i walked over and let the guy with his kids know what we encountered and that he should be very careful and stay away from any slopes outside the trees. I know i would have hated myself if i didn't speak up and something happened to one of them.

What would you do in this situation??

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