Riddle me this.... 06-800P-tek Summit

Shibby!

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Explaining my problem.

Last spring I was riding with some buds. While doing a slow, whooped out section of trail and being a bit rusty on the throttle I suddenly heard a metallic rattle from the engine. It didn't last too long, but maybe 15-25 seconds. In that time I couldn't determine it's cause.

The day was warmer, and snow was that spring time set-up where it had some fresh on top, but a rotting base. I've personally never ran this late in the year.

Either way, after that incident I noticed the engine to be less responsive, poor at idle, slightly off with sound, and lacking top end. At times almost sounding like it was miss-firing. The strange thing is at times I swear it was running good for a few seconds.

I originally figured I did it in. Either piston skirt broke, famous seal blow-out, or it digested a chunk of my reed valve.

Not wanting to hold up the group I pampered it the rest of the day and rode it out... never a fun thing when you know the engine isn't running well.

The sled has around 3500-4000km's. Overall, from my ownership ridden relatively easy compared to some. I don't seem to need to use WOT throttle to do what many others do, so I just ride it easy.

So, since the weather has cooled a few days ago I decided to dig into it. I checked the following:

1) Reed valves are in perfect shape. No gap, no chips, no missing screws/rivets, nothing.
2) Carb boots look as good as day one.
3) RAVE's were pretty clean and in good operating condition.
4) Last spring the piston's compression checked at ~140 and ~150. I know people either say 10lbs between pistons or 10% is rebuild time. Either way the one would go higher but seemed to require more aggressive pulls. It's the stator side piston.
5) Spark plugs appeared to differ. One being slightly black and the other slightly light. I'll have to dig those out for more detail, this is recalling info from last spring and I've worked on a few engines since then..
6) Pressure checked engine tonight and it checked good with and without the cap. Held 5psi for a good while.

So what could the problem have been? Was the metallic sound I heard a missing bolt/spark plug/kidney from the bellows beneath the engine coughed up by a rough section of trail and the performance difference from warm weather and power sucking snow? Was it a piston skirt been eaten and spit out? Was it electronic somehow and the noise was in my head? Is my stator gone and it was just sucking ass from miss-firing and poor spark?

Jetting on the sled is fairly standard with exception to the pilot. It's still the 17.5 and not 20 from the apparent recall or "complaint change".

My next step is to take the head cover off and check for cylinder and piston damage. If nothing found I figure I might order some pistons and do the top end... It just sucks because this year I'm house poor and hoping to save as much costs as possible.

Let me know what you think. Maybe somebody has gone through a similar experience? These sleds are common so here's to hoping...
 

Summiteer

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Have you checked your spark plug wires? You may have one that fails intermittently. I had one that broke right at the plug.
 

boots

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i would say pull head and check pistons... i also replaced the spark plug wires, for i found the there was carbon on the spark plug and in the cap
 

FRANKE RACING

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go deeper. with that milage the crank is were the problem is. if the plug was dark gray its a crank bearing. seen hundreds of them. if the motor is stock put in rebult shot block good luck.
 

Shibby!

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Ok,

I like answers with some background for there reasoning. Saying the crank is shot is not a clear answer. The engine was pressure tested and it's not leaking. The seals on the crank are good. Sure this doesn't mean the bearings may be lacking grease, but it shows there isn't air getting into the engine. Also, the plug being dark gray can mean many things. Dark gray is different from wet and black, etc. Running an engine and checking the plug is a very poor method of reading the engine operation if it's not a brand new plug and not plug chopped, even then most don't look nearly far into this to get a proper answer. These plugs were not new so what readings we can get from them is only worth a grain of salt unless drastic conditions exist.

Spark plug wires could be faulty, but once again carbon on the caps isn't necessarily saying they are faulty. Carbon is from poor connection and spark bridging causing it to burn. Resistance = heat. This could be the wires themselves, or the cap to plug. I'll try looking further into this. I've been lucky enough to never change wires on an engine like this so I'll have to look into replacements, etc.

Pistons can be replaced, but this doesn't mean it's the problem. If the pistons look good and have good compression, a piston will not make the engine run poorly.

I will look further, but just throwing money at the sled trying to trouble shoot expensive items isn't a reasonable way of fixing something.

I've fixed plenty of motors that weren't working for free or next to nothing. Like my KTM that had a very similar issue that turned out to be simply the spark plug cap that loosened, or another time where the plug wire was grounding the rad guard. Now would it have been smart for me to throw a new crank and piston in that just to make sure?

Please support your statements. I'm not going to throw 1000$ at this sled only to find it's a the DPM, Coil, or stator, etc.

Once again, I appreciate the help, I just don't like unsupported answers. I'm very facts based both in my schooling and way of life.
 

Slamnek

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I was just reading a snowtech mag and there is an article on the ski-doo spark plug caps. It says "if your ski-doo starts to run erratically, missing at high rpms or hiccups at all, the FIRST place you should be checking is the spark plug caps and where they attach to the spark plugs" They say check for damage and black residue. Clean or replace and add a small amount of dielectric grease. I hope this helps.
 

Slamnek

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Also i had that metal clunk sound on a whooped out trail and it turned out that a spark plug from the spare plug holder fell out and hit the primary. it made a little knick in the clutch so i think i got pretty lucky.
 

Shibby!

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Also i had that metal clunk sound on a whooped out trail and it turned out that a spark plug from the spare plug holder fell out and hit the primary. it made a little knick in the clutch so i think i got pretty lucky.

Haha.

I found a plug down below the engine (the abyss of the summit) this fall when I started getting into it, but I have a faint memory of me dropping it there in the spring and just putting a different plug in the hole to keep it closed to the elements (I was sanding/painting my garage and had the sled covered).

Thanks for the reply. I will check that and the DPM switch this week.

I'll have to read up on replacing these plug wires. I've only had plug type where they plug onto coils (old cars). Neve into a coil like the Rev's.

Crappy thing is with snow conditions I can't really test the engine till later. The more things I change/check the less I'll know what fixed it, provided I fix it. Sucks because it's nice to know if it acts up again on the trail/hill.
 

DRD

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Pull the head and the Y pipe and have a look. All it costs is a little time.
 

toml

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Agree, pull the Y-pipe and look at your pistons. Has a similar thing happen 2 springs ago, turned out to be the top end was shot. Even did a compression test before it was torn apart, and the compression test was ok, but when the head came off, not so ok. have a look now before the season gets going.
 

team dirt

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Im assuming since you were on a whooped out trail you could have been at a lower elevation and being late in the season im assuming the air temps were warm, if this is the case you may have experienced detonation. with the warmer temps you start running hotter water temps and that will creat a warmer head temp, with this there is a great chance for pre combustion especially if that day you received a lesser quaility fuel. if detonation persists you can have a ring stick and it will act as if you have lost spark in that hole, after it idles down and cools alot of times that hole will gain compression back and run as if nothing was wrong (usually only temporary) untill the piston will do the four corner seizure and then you are done. Pull the heads and cylinders and look for scuffing and a poor wash on top of the piston. Also look on the inside of the piston at the top of the dome and see if it is burnt. That is a good indication of detonation. Also your worst wear on the piston will most likely be at the ring centering pin as it is steel and will actually get red hot compared to the aluminum.
Not sure if this is your problem but its a start.
 

Shibby!

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Im assuming since you were on a whooped out trail you could have been at a lower elevation and being late in the season im assuming the air temps were warm, if this is the case you may have experienced detonation. with the warmer temps you start running hotter water temps and that will creat a warmer head temp, with this there is a great chance for pre combustion especially if that day you received a lesser quaility fuel. if detonation persists you can have a ring stick and it will act as if you have lost spark in that hole, after it idles down and cools alot of times that hole will gain compression back and run as if nothing was wrong (usually only temporary) untill the piston will do the four corner seizure and then you are done. Pull the heads and cylinders and look for scuffing and a poor wash on top of the piston. Also look on the inside of the piston at the top of the dome and see if it is burnt. That is a good indication of detonation. Also your worst wear on the piston will most likely be at the ring centering pin as it is steel and will actually get red hot compared to the aluminum.
Not sure if this is your problem but its a start.

2000 meters is when it started and rode 2000-2200 from there (except out of the area). From what I remember it was warmer, but not like t-shirt weather. I'd still say slightly below zero. Maybe -5-10.

Maybe an issue. I should see a decent view through the exhaust ports wouldn't I? At least the piston tops and back cylinder walls. I'm hesitant to take off the Y-pipe because I seem to have a rare sled where the bolts don't back out, and hope to keep it that way without spending $$ on expensive bolts and washers..

I'll see. I wish I could test it without reassembling it. lol. I'd like to test once I change the plug boots, check the DPM, and clean the clutch. Then if it's still a problem pull the head cover off and take a peak.

If I'm taking the head cover off, I'm tempted just to put new pistons in it
 

team dirt

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Have a look down the plug holes and see what u can see, to pull the heads wont take you that much time and you can tell alot, if you run it and it grenades then it is usaually a renikasil job also, save time and money and pull at minimum the head.
 

Shibby!

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Have a look down the plug holes and see what u can see, to pull the heads wont take you that much time and you can tell alot, if you run it and it grenades then it is usaually a renikasil job also, save time and money and pull at minimum the head.

I'll have to order the o-rings then...

I'll check into that. It'll at least make me feel better knowing.
 

Showtime

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I'll have to order the o-rings then...

I'll check into that. It'll at least make me feel better knowing.

Go to Princess Auto and buy the cheapy scope, pull the plug and shove it down the hole and you can also look up the exhaust port as well, they have a little light on the end to see around.
 

Shibby!

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Go to Princess Auto and buy the cheapy scope, pull the plug and shove it down the hole and you can also look up the exhaust port as well, they have a little light on the end to see around.

How much does that cost? lol.. Sounds like we're getting more expensive.

O-rings are around 30 USD +shipping. Might just order pistons for 300$ that come with that kit + the base gasket kit. Base gaskets are 9-13$each (for setting squish) + locktite 518 (~30$). I'd be curious what MCB allows for a basegasket considering they don't know what gasket thickness is required...

Here it is:

Range from $150-300:
 

Shibby!

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You know what's cheaper??

Ordering Nord-Locks at 1$/each x 8 and using a mirror to view the cylinder as best as possible. With some unique positions I'm sure I can see most of the cylinder with some minor cursing and swearing!

Pipe, silencer, carbs, etc are all off already doing my leak test and random overview.
 

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u can pull the head and re use the o rings, i bet u could get the head off quicker than the y pipe and see alot more, you want to have a good look at your intake side as that is wher the centering pin is located.
 

Shibby!

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Just to keep you guys informed as I posted this on the Dootalk forum as well, I have removed, cleaned and WD-40'd the DPM solenoid as well. Looks corroded, but seemed to operate fine. I have yet to find a 9v battery and apply power to it.

Next steps are to probalby pop the head off and take a peak at cylinder, piston tops, and burn pattern. After that, clean the carbs/jets and probably re-install everything.

I have a feeling this problem may simply dissapear...

I'm also going to order new plug boots because I know the stockers suck for connectivity.
 

HiLlClImB911

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had a similar issue with my 07 2 yrs ago found my plug wire was cracked and the other one had a bad boot, replace from the celonide to the cap and had a rattling to find my noise was coming from my brake rotar, 10 dollar fix for the new wires and boots, and piece of mind for the rattle knowing where it was coming from
 
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