Residential Geothermal

[treemongrol]

There's very few companies in alberta that can do a proper geothermal system. Generally geothermal is good to -10benefit of it in alberta is in the summer for cooling, have relatives in Kelowna that have it they love it until something breaks then they hate cause they gouge you on the repairs cause its geothermal. Do your homework on it and make sure you have a backup system. Myself I would do a boiler with infloor and an hotwater coil in the airhandler/furnace with A/C

 

[mareshow]

I'm a heating/ac contractor in BC. Since so many areas do not have access to ng, heat pumps are the most efficient heat source we have almost three times more efficient than electric heat. There are inverter drive heat pumps coming to market now that will heat till about 15 below, in the BC interior these are going to work great. In Alberta with the colder winters your best bet is still ng. There are 98% efficient furnaces available. With all the shale gas that is being found ng prices should remain low. The pay back on gt is about 20 to 30 years got that long?

Payback Here is longer because our efficiency is so low.

There are some very good points in some of the reply's DaveB.... IMO.... you will never go wrong with good insulation... I personally question the performance of spray foam insulation, icf is amazing but a little difficult to wire/finish exterior walls.... good windows are number 1!!!! I have had geothermal for just over 10 years now and so far no issues, payback???? we live in a gas rich province!! Comfort??? you can't beat geo!!! geo performs better in an air duct system and AC is just part of it.... if you are partial to all infloor or hydronic heat??? I think NG and a good condensing boiler would be best!! If you like hydronic baseboard heat??? don't even consider a geo system!! Depending on size of your new home... one geo unit can supply both air duct and hydronic... But do your home work as there are definitely some fly by night outfits out there.... and anyone that puts in electric heat in alberta is misinformed..... IMHO

Someone mentioned something about horizontal.... they work well.... in the right soil condition and the Sylvan swimming pool??? They installed the field under the parking lot... rule number one in geo... do not drive on the geo field in the winter... it drives the frost down!!

PM me Dave if you like, I have a little info!!

You're right, Geo doesnt get hot enough to heat for baseboard, infloor maybe but you better have a good heat pump ($$$). I just finished installing a massive boiler backup system, retrofitted into a geo system, Why? in the winter, even at -10 C, the building could never get hot enough. In AB, Its either solar or boiler if you want efficiency.

Depends on the spray foam too The company I use to do our vans, if its 0 C outside it'll be 10 C in the van, it works extremely well!

 

[DaveB]

There are some very good points in some of the reply's DaveB.... IMO.... you will never go wrong with good insulation... I personally question the performance of spray foam insulation, icf is amazing but a little difficult to wire/finish exterior walls.... good windows are number 1!!!! I have had geothermal for just over 10 years now and so far no issues, payback???? we live in a gas rich province!! Comfort??? you can't beat geo!!! geo performs better in an air duct system and AC is just part of it.... if you are partial to all infloor or hydronic heat??? I think NG and a good condensing boiler would be best!! If you like hydronic baseboard heat??? don't even consider a geo system!! Depending on size of your new home... one geo unit can supply both air duct and hydronic... But do your home work as there are definitely some fly by night outfits out there.... and anyone that puts in electric heat in alberta is misinformed..... IMHO

Someone mentioned something about horizontal.... they work well.... in the right soil condition and the Sylvan swimming pool??? They installed the field under the parking lot... rule number one in geo... do not drive on the geo field in the winter... it drives the frost down!!

PM me Dave if you like, I have a little info!!

I think I am sufficiently chased away from the idea of Geothermal. It will never pay for itself. Met with builder yesterday...going with plain ol forced air NG furnace and in-floor rough-in....that I will probably never use. We are going with good windows and upgraded insulation in the basement.

 

[Joholio]

Regarding rural Gas Coop infill costs. I've been told by my gas guy(Diamond Valley Gas Coop) that the customer pays his fee $5000-7000 and then it is a government grant to pay the rest. Like mentioned earlier, it doesn't matter if it is 100m or 1km. They really don't make much if any money installing the service, its the gas sales that make the money.

I have an Allied SuperHot boiler running my small shop and it is awesome! Thaw out a piece of equipment in hours!

DaveB- I have a directional drill if you are needing any services installed at a good guy rate in west central AB. (If that is where you are) Cheers!

 

[mareshow]

I think I am sufficiently chased away from the idea of Geothermal. It will never pay for itself. Met with builder yesterday...going with plain ol forced air NG furnace and in-floor rough-in....that I will probably never use. We are going with good windows and upgraded insulation in the basement.

The more insulated the less your bill is Good choice on staying away from Geothermal, I would still highly recommend a boiler system. Installed correctly for a decent sized house will cost you about 30K. It means a higher resale, you can get your HWT off it, so one less gas appliance, and then your furnace is just used for ventilation. That and having warm feet all the time is awesome, especially after getting out of the shower or tub. Not to mention the fact that your heating bill will be lower simply off the fact that a fluid transfers heat way more efficiently than air. ANNND you maintain a better humidity in your home. Plus to add zones for a garage or toy shed is cheap!

 

[OVERKILL 19]

I think I am sufficiently chased away from the idea of Geothermal. It will never pay for itself. Met with builder yesterday...going with plain ol forced air NG furnace and in-floor rough-in....that I will probably never use. We are going with good windows and upgraded insulation in the basement.

Simple is the better way.. IMO
I had the fancy boiler with a computer etc it did my heat and hot water. $16000 and 6 years later its in the dump. I have a 2 spd NG furnace and 85g water tank. The $$$ money wasted on the "cost saving crap" I could have burned $10 for a year to heat my house. NG is cheap.. It's the transfer fees that's expensive. Last I looked no boiler/ furnace can help with that. Ill never go back. My garage I had planed on in floor 1400sqft but at $12000 for that system !!! I'd have to live to be a hundred and fifty. I put in a HE NG furnace and two ceiling fans??? If I have $1800 into it I'd be surprised. I spent $$ on SM under floor and around footings. I think it was worth it.

 

[Dazzler]

Payback Here is longer because our efficiency is so low.

Pay back is longer here because of gas/electrical costs!!! Todays heatpumps are 360% - 400+% efficient and it remains the same right across Canada, climate does not change efficiency.... improper design and install will.

You're right, Geo doesnt get hot enough to heat for baseboard, infloor maybe but you better have a good heat pump ($$$). I just finished installing a massive boiler backup system, retrofitted into a geo system, Why? in the winter, even at -10 C, the building could never get hot enough. In AB, Its either solar or boiler if you want efficiency.

Geo works extremely well with infloor systems (again designed properly), an infloor systems on a boiler needs mixing valves to bring temps down to what a heatpump actually provides efficiently... IMO the down side with geo hydronic systems with out air duct is you loose the AC ability so really no need for all the extra expense when NG is at the property line!!

Depends on the spray foam too The company I use to do our vans, if its 0 C outside it'll be 10 C in the van, it works extremely well!

So the spray foam makes heat??

 

[Joholio]

$6301 is the cost to the homeowner this year on a new NG rural infill service around from Sylvan Lake to Leslieville.

My boiler has been flawless since 2007. It heats a 2x6 wall 30x40x16 insulated shop at about 16C and a slave 50 gallon domestic hot water tank. Boiler was $1400 and total costs did not exceed $6000 including install and insulation under and around slab. My neighbour has overhead radiant in his shop and it sucks, always feel cold in there.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

$6301 is the cost to the homeowner this year on a new NG rural infill service around from Sylvan Lake to Leslieville.

My boiler has been flawless since 2007. It heats a 2x6 wall 30x40x16 insulated shop at about 16C and a slave 50 gallon domestic hot water tank. Boiler was $1400 and total costs did not exceed $6000 including install and insulation under and around slab. My neighbour has overhead radiant in his shop and it sucks, always feel cold in there.

U must know a guy? To get a boiler to heat that for $1400 ! The only other thing to consider with boiler and hot water tank set ups. They work great but u can't hang them thus eating up floor space ... In a shop.

 

[mareshow]

Simple is the better way.. IMO
I had the fancy boiler with a computer etc it did my heat and hot water. $16000 and 6 years later its in the dump. I have a 2 spd NG furnace and 85g water tank. The $$$ money wasted on the "cost saving crap" I could have burned $10 for a year to heat my house. NG is cheap.. It's the transfer fees that's expensive. Last I looked no boiler/ furnace can help with that. Ill never go back. My garage I had planed on in floor 1400sqft but at $12000 for that system !!! I'd have to live to be a hundred and fifty. I put in a HE NG furnace and two ceiling fans??? If I have $1800 into it I'd be surprised. I spent $$ on SM under floor and around footings. I think it was worth it.

Installation is key, if you have a crap installation it doesnt matter what tech you have installed. Most of my customers are people who have had terrible luck with the systems simply because of incorrect installation. I get a lot of business fixing other peoples screw ups.

So the spray foam makes heat??

No the sunload does it just retains the heat in the vans better

Yes the heat pumps are efficient But our GEO index here is not. You could have the most efficient heat pump on the market and it still wont make up for the fact that you cant get enough heat out of the ground. I wasnt speaking about heat pump efficiency i was speaking of our geothermal heat transfer efficiency. You need a ridiculous amount of loops here to do the exact same thing that only a few will do in places with a high geo index. sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also again you are right an infloor system with geo is fantastic because it can provide close to the proper temps required for a good system BUT again the number of loops you'll need to maintain that temp is where i'm speaking. IMO its just way too many here. Also a condensing boiler does away with the need for those mixing valves. Using mixing valves is old school boiler design, My favorite set up is a primary/secondary loop system with injection pumps. Its simple and works excellently. And with most modern condensing boilers, all i need for controls wise is built into the boiler.

 

[Dazzler]

Installation is key, if you have a crap installation it doesnt matter what tech you have installed. Most of my customers are people who have had terrible luck with the systems simply because of incorrect installation. I get a lot of business fixing other peoples screw ups.



No the sunload does it just retains the heat in the vans better

Yes the heat pumps are efficient But our GEO index here is not. You could have the most efficient heat pump on the market and it still wont make up for the fact that you cant get enough heat out of the ground. I wasnt speaking about heat pump efficiency i was speaking of our geothermal heat transfer efficiency. You need a ridiculous amount of loops here to do the exact same thing that only a few will do in places with a high geo index. sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also again you are right an infloor system with geo is fantastic because it can provide close to the proper temps required for a good system BUT again the number of loops you'll need to maintain that temp is where i'm speaking. IMO its just way too many here. Also a condensing boiler does away with the need for those mixing valves. Using mixing valves is old school boiler design, My favorite set up is a primary/secondary loop system with injection pumps. Its simple and works excellently. And with most modern condensing boilers, all i need for controls wise is built into the boiler.

Got ya!!!! yes you need approx 220' of borehole per ton of heat in the Red Deer area as apposed to 150' of borehole per ton of heat in the okanagan!
From what little dealing I've had with condensing boilers, I found the NTI pretty trouble free and yes, injection as apposed to mixing..

 

[mareshow]

Got ya!!!! yes you need approx 220' of borehole per ton of heat in the Red Deer area as apposed to 150' of borehole per ton of heat in the okanagan!
From what little dealing I've had with condensing boilers, I found the NTI pretty trouble free and yes, injection as apposed to mixing..

Exactly! Except 220' would be a bit light IMO I'd want to push for 250' or more if possible per ton. 220' will do it but theres a difference between making the cut at max load and handling it haha. But we're talking almost Double in a lot of cases vs Europe and BC, hence why i think it's not worth it here. You're basically pouring money back into the ground as opposed to pulling it back out

NTI and Viessmann are my preferred brands, I really like NTI because they are made in canada and their warranty is awesome.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

Installation is key, if you have a crap installation it doesnt matter what tech you have installed. Most of my customers are people who have had terrible luck with the systems simply because of incorrect installation. I get a lot of business fixing other peoples screw ups.
.

I don't think install had anything to due with mother board frying , internal tank cracking! Too much fancy chit IMO all that high end stuff is great when it works but IMO the pay off is just not there!

 

[mach123]

Exactly! Except 220' would be a bit light IMO I'd want to push for 250' or more if possible per ton. 220' will do it but theres a difference between making the cut at max load and handling it haha. But we're talking almost Double in a lot of cases vs Europe and BC, hence why i think it's not worth it here. You're basically pouring money back into the ground as opposed to pulling it back out

NTI and Viessmann are my preferred brands, I really like NTI because they are made in canada and their warranty is awesome.

X100% there is a guy next door to shop and didn't do hie homework and now has $$$$ in system and to small and has no more room for extra loops, so now is asing owner next door to run more loops and he can tie into system lol I would never do GEO here........................good luck

 

[kidder17]

Not sure you are allowed to use NTI and Viessmann in the same sentence. I guess maybe if it is the low end Vitodens 100 series against the NTI Trinity, but that would be about the end of it. Sorry, but after dealing with the NTI issues in the field from the Trinity's release back in around 2001-2010, you will never hear these words come from my mouth- Good boiler and NTI/Trinity

 

[mareshow]

I don't think install had anything to due with mother board frying , internal tank cracking! Too much fancy chit IMO all that high end stuff is great when it works but IMO the pay off is just not there!

That's a manufacturers defect and any reputable boiler company would have covered that under warranty. What brand was it if i might ask? And the install could totally have something to do with the tank cracking actually. Whether it be supply piping too small, too large (typically not the case but i have seen it where the supply piping was so different that the velocity was so slow that the water was flashing to steam! Boom goes the heat exchanger!), supply velocity too high (this one is mostly seen in steam applications though) and many other things that could cause that. So yes, it totally could have been the installation.

I'm not trying to knock other companies' work, because i have seen some fantastic installs out there but I also have a lot of customers who tried to save a couple bucks on the install and paid for it in the end. Do it right or don't do it at all is my modo. If I couldnt walk into a boiler room when we're done and be comfortable with it in my own home then it has no place in my customer's home.

 

[magnet]

A friend if mine looked into geo when he built his new shop. Was crazy expensive. Figured it out versus in floor heat and he was looking at min 25-30 yrs just to break even on the geo And no promise of it even working sufficiently for his shop aprox 5000 sqft
That was in the drayton valley area
We have to bore to far to make it cost effective in Alberta

 

[mareshow]

Not sure you are allowed to use NTI and Viessmann in the same sentence. I guess maybe if it is the low end Vitodens 100 series against the NTI Trinity, but that would be about the end of it. Sorry, but after dealing with the NTI issues in the field from the Trinity's release back in around 2001-2010, you will never hear these words come from my mouth- Good boiler and NTI/Trinity

I agree with you there for sure, NTI went through a HUGE learning curve when they first came out but I would definitely recommend taking another look at them now, They have picked up their socks substantially and their new control systems built into their new LX condensing boilers is fantastic and easy to use. Its basically like getting a Vitodens 200 but without the 25% mark up.

 

[kidder17]

Lol, They probably have improved, but I still have a bad taste in my mouth from them. I totally agree with you on pretty much everything else you have said on here but that. Sounds like you have a good handle on the Hydronic field and I would hire a contractor like yourself any day. We need way, way, way more contractors out there like you.

 

[OVERKILL 19]

That's a manufacturers defect and any reputable boiler company would have covered that under warranty. What brand was it if i might ask? And the install could totally have something to do with the tank cracking actually. Whether it be supply piping too small, too large (typically not the case but i have seen it where the supply piping was so different that the velocity was so slow that the water was flashing to steam! Boom goes the heat exchanger!), supply velocity too high (this one is mostly seen in steam applications though) and many other things that could cause that. So yes, it totally could have been the installation.

I'm not trying to knock other companies' work, because i have seen some fantastic installs out there but I also have a lot of customers who tried to save a couple bucks on the install and paid for it in the end. Do it right or don't do it at all is my modo. If I couldnt walk into a boiler room when we're done and be comfortable with it in my own home then it has no place in my customer's home.

3 words Lenox complete heat. Went threw 3 of them. Warranty was me paying Aries mech $7000 to set up new boiler that would do my domestic water as well. Due to we had removed our original chimney when Reno done so had to go with HE. TOLD THEM TO GET-------! Got a 2 spd furnace he water tank. Simple as I could get